Author Topic: Sharing Strategies from other Sports  (Read 40329 times)

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2018, 08:17:58 AM »
If you downwinded, surfed, or were a coastal paddler you’d find that an inflatable would kill all enjoyment STAT. If that’s the kind of punishment you enjoy, you might as well just just stay at home and dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water.

If the extent of you paddling is lakes, bays, harbors then an inflatable is perfectly fine.
*Protected* lakes, bays, harbors... and as long as you aren’t going further offshore than you can swim, and/or the water isn’t so cold that you’d die before you were rescued... otherwise basically you are betting your life on one tiny little O ring in a cheap plastic valve.

yugi

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2018, 08:31:58 AM »
^ I've bet my life on more then that and the pacha mama hasn't claimed me yet.

In a typical "whoops - maybe I should have thought that through a bit better" moment I took a narrow dugout in over 30 kn winds, 20 mile DW, in what turned out to be nasty crossed up conditions. At least I can comfortably say that I'm pretty much an expert at getting back in those f*ckers in really tricky conditions. I must have crawled back in to it about 3000 times. So at least I have that part well practiced.

And, yes, it does suck.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 08:34:24 AM by yugi »

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2018, 09:35:31 AM »
^ I've bet my life on more then that and the pacha mama hasn't claimed me yet.

In a typical "whoops - maybe I should have thought that through a bit better" moment I took a narrow dugout in over 30 kn winds, 20 mile DW, in what turned out to be nasty crossed up conditions. At least I can comfortably say that I'm pretty much an expert at getting back in those f*ckers in really tricky conditions. I must have crawled back in to it about 3000 times. So at least I have that part well practiced.

And, yes, it does suck.
20 miles would be a long downwinder even if you were on a suitable board. That’s pretty extraordinary - you must be made of tough stuff.

It’s an awful feeling when you realise on a strong and long downwinder that you’ve brought a knife to a gunfight. You can’t stop, or go back. So you just have to endure the pain and shame. And when that happens, you never really forgive the board that did it to you.

Even quite minor raised lips around a slightly sunken deck can become a big irritant if you start falling a lot. It’s so easy to trap a finger, bang a knee or crack your paddle etc unless the deck is dead flat.

Flatwater boards = sunken deck (if you must).
Roughwater/downwind boards = flat deck.
It’s the law. Or should be :)

photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2018, 11:35:33 AM »
This was a near-perfect experience on a SUP - using my 17'6 x 23"
We had so much fun!!!

- Not racing
- Just good times amongst friends

Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2018, 11:38:21 AM »
Make what you want of it, but note:
- We were both on sunken decks
- He had a rudder / I didn't
- Garmin only gives you the wind speed as you are heading out - the way back was blowing 15 to 20 knots.

- We had a total blast
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Califoilia

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2018, 11:54:48 AM »
If you downwinded, surfed, or were a coastal paddler you’d find that an inflatable would kill all enjoyment STAT. If that’s the kind of punishment you enjoy, you might as well just just stay at home and dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water.

If the extent of you paddling is lakes, bays, harbors then an inflatable is perfectly fine.

And far better than having to "dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water" as the other alternative.  ;) ;D
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2018, 12:28:13 PM »
Make what you want of it, but note:
- We were both on sunken decks
- He had a rudder / I didn't
- Garmin only gives you the wind speed as you are heading out - the way back was blowing 15 to 20 knots.

- We had a total blast
Yeah in a mild breeze like that, especially inland, a board like that can be fun.

pdxmike

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2018, 05:49:58 PM »
I have to say that if I weren't racing and was paddling for fun, conditioning and fitness, I'd go and buy one of the latest inflatables. I'd praise the convenience and practicality over the nuances of the boards ride qualities. I feel so ashamed............
No reason for shame, although racing will keep you in much better shape than spending time on inflatables.  I don't have one, but lots of people do, for the convenience and practicality, just as you say.  I've heard the ride qualities of the newest models are almost lifelike.

Bean

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2018, 07:17:17 PM »
I know a guy who keeps two in his car just so he can use the HOV lanes...

photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2018, 10:51:58 PM »
So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?

So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.

7. You haven't defined how it would be either more affordable or more accessible. Please explain further ?


MY VIEWS on #7

More accessible:
-   Because SUP boards can be lighter when made from a Mold.
-   Because SUP boards with a very low standing area would be more stable.
-   Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.

More affordable:
-   Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
-   Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.

More versatile:
-   Because of its rudder system. Many people do not paddle when it’s a bit windy, but a rudder will make them want to get out more often on the water.
-   Because I am certain that only a single board can be used for flat or downwing – just like in the World of surfskis. We just have to think outside the box.

Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2018, 11:16:06 PM »
So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?

So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.


2. Your term oversimplification is vague. Simple is good. Especially when it comes to design, manufacturing and maintenance. Monocoque (hollow) can be simple and good too.
5. You aren’t making sense. Do you mean an intermediate board or an allwater board made for top guys?
6. I have tried a couple of narrowish 14 dugouts’s.   
  - On flat I’d much rather be on a flattop.   
  - In waves I feel like a pinball bouncing around in a pinball machine. I prefer to carve than slither.
  - In sidewind I find them really horrible.
My motto is to pick my gear for the hardest part of the day. I get sidewind thrown at me all the time. A board I can keep my bearing in sidewind is the acid test to me. So far I find dugouts a nightmare. Maybe I have yet to learn something, maybe designs will change. We’ll see.
7. I’m all for more accessible , more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days). What this has to do with your musings I can’t really tell.

I keep an open mind to dugouts. I’ll keep trying. I do notice that they are the trend in races. I do know Titou used to much prefer an Allstar to an Ace for all the reasons I do )we had a talk about it). I do notice he is way dugout now. So I know there must be something to it.  …

 

DETAILS
2. Oversimplification of board design is what I meant. For instance, when a company took a computer to aid its design, and simply cuts off the rear end of a board in a straight line (against the computer’s design (or logic for that matter)) – no less. I am just stunned when I see SUP manufacturers take one shortcut after the other - and then charge us more and more.

It’s outrageous to me that in 2018, most companies are still seeking simple construction methods too:
-   Why are we still using Styrofoam?
-   Why is everyone so afraid of looking elsewhere / other water crafts?

In the end, I feel we have a cheaply made product that we bought at high prices.

5. What I meant there was:
Let’s say you are an intermediate-level paddler, somewhat middle of the pack… You want a new board adapted for your skill level, and so you go and pick one up. Let’s say it’s a 14x25” board… and WHAT DO YOU GET?

Right now, you are most likely going to get a board designed to go fast ONLY with a top athlete on it.

Current Intermediate-Level boards are not designed for Intermediate paddlers in mind, except for the fact that they are somewhat stable. Intermediate paddlers are not yet benefiting from any board glide – unless said Intermediate paddler has the strength of an elite paddler.

6. Currently-built dugout boards CAN be tippy, shaky, and even shady, so you are right there. A picture is like a 1000 words, but in this case, I wish you had been able to try my friend’s construction.

His board was like 18’ long by 25” (I believe). That thing was made out of plywood, a dugout shape, with a rudder. While there’s always room for improvement on any craft, his board was not at all shaky, or shady… in fact, it was well thought out and designed with care.

That alone may have changed the way you think about dugout boards. Just sayin’

7. Looking at other water crafts may change the way we think – thus making our SUP boards more accessible, more versatile, and more affordable – only when you factor all components – including construction methods.

All in all, I do hope you will keep an open mind to dugouts.

Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2018, 11:18:57 PM »
Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.

Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.

Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.

What makes you think that a dugout board makes you stay STUCK in one place ?
With or without a rudder, long or short board, the body is designed to move around - even on dead-flat water.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2018, 11:36:05 PM »
Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.

Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.

Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.


Dugouts catch wind and chop.

They are a pain to carry and transport.

They are almost impossible for many people to get back into after a fall …

They look like canoes…

 

Are you really keeping an open mind?

“Dugouts catch wind and chop. “
But they don’t have to… and that’s my point.
Without the right drainage system, you’ll need high sidewalls (indeed another problem that will catch wind). Put the right drainage and all of the sudden, you don’t need high sidewalls. Surfskis and OC1 used to have high sidewalls too – until people got tired of being tossed around like a butterfly in the wind.

“They are a pain to carry and transport. “
I don’t see that one AT ALL.
In fact, if anything, dugout boards are easier to carry, mainly because you have more ways to carry them. Strangely enough, I see several paddlers in France (mainly on surfskis) who can paddle pretty well, but who haven’t taken 5 minutes to learn “boat handling”. The same can be said with SUP paddlers that struggle handling their boards out of the water. For this one, I’d say: education is key.

“They are almost impossible for many people to get back into after a fall …”
Back to education.
There’s a method, and it works very well with the highest of sidewalls. Factor in the fact that I am talking about less sidewalls, and remounting your board becomes child’s play.

“They look like canoes…”
Yes, they can look like canoes. Heck, some SUP look like surfboards – and that didn’t stop you from liking them, right?! Maybe it’s form before function – maybe it’s just the image that appeals to SUPers more than function.

Reaching for more…
But just imagine what it would be like:
Take your current favorite board, make it more stable, and make it glide like crazy. Now you’d end up with a faster board, with even less effort. Doesn’t that feel like MORE FUN to you?
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2018, 12:17:10 AM »
I have to say that if I weren't racing and was paddling for fun, conditioning and fitness, I'd go and buy one of the latest inflatables. I'd praise the convenience and practicality over the nuances of the boards ride qualities. I feel so ashamed............
No reason for shame, although racing will keep you in much better shape than spending time on inflatables.  I don't have one, but lots of people do, for the convenience and practicality, just as you say.  I've heard the ride qualities of the newest models are almost lifelike.
Only in protected flat water.

As I’ve said before, inflatables are (still) truly *awful* for:

1. Surfing.
2. Downwinding.
3. Choppy coastal paddling.
4. Paddling in crosswinds (over 15 knots).
5. Paddling upwind (anything over 15 knots).
6. Serious paddling in harsh environments and/or long way from shore or rescue (psssssst!!!).

And I say this as someone who owns 3 inflatable SUPs, and was the second person ever in my whole country to own one, about 10 years ago (an ULI I imported from the US), long before most people had even heard of inflatable SUPs.

However, what inflatables are good for are the following:

A. Family fun with the kids close to shore.
B. Beginners (hurts less if you collide with one).
C. Urban dwellers in cities who have no other storage option.
D. Protected rivers or lakes.
E. Rocky shores or where long portage is required.
F. Day trips in windless areas close to shore.
G. One-design type inflatable racing like N1SCO, or SUP polo.
H. SUP yoga.
I. Some whitewater applications, perhaps.

Now, list A-I is quite a long list. And since the majority of SUPers are just casual recreational paddlers who live inland and just want to pootle about with the kids etc on sunny days, this means that inflatables will always be very popular.

But if you enjoy the most “exciting” or technically and personally challenging aspects of SUP (see 1-6) and/or are a coastal dweller, especially in windy places, then iSUPs are almost completely useless to you. They make SUPing so hard and unrewarding in the conditions 1-6 that you won’t really want to bother.

So it’s very much a case of “horses for courses”. But don’t let the marketing hype fool you into thinking that the “new constructions” etc mean you can use inflatables in situations 1-6 above. Because you can’t. They STINK for those applications.

SaMoSUP

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2018, 12:19:48 AM »
“They look like canoes…”
Yes, they can look like canoes. Heck, some SUP look like surfboards – and that didn’t stop you from liking them, right?! Maybe it’s form before function – maybe it’s just the image that appeals to SUPers more than function.

Well isn't the surfboard how SUP started in the first place? It's the middle ground between surfing and canoeing. You're just leaning towards the canoeing side more now. I have friends who used to race SUP and thought it was too slow so they cut to the chase and crossed over to OC-1 or 6.

And also I enjoy surfing my raceboards on smaller days. Surfing in a dugout is restricting.



« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:23:18 AM by SaMoSUP »

 


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