Author Topic: Stroke Rate for Distance  (Read 8685 times)

ukgm

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2018, 06:17:46 AM »

The great thing about not racing is you can make pure enjoyment your aim. Itís like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders :)


I completely agree with you. However, I personally don't have that kind of connection with any sport. I've tried.... I really have... but in the end, I realised that I enjoyed the journey to performance.

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2018, 06:45:05 AM »

The great thing about not racing is you can make pure enjoyment your aim. Itís like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders :)


I completely agree with you. However, I personally don't have that kind of connection with any sport. I've tried.... I really have... but in the end, I realised that I enjoyed the journey to performance.

To me it looks like you're enjoying more the journey of understanding the ins and outs of what makes good performance :)
incidentally, I happen to love that aspect too, I just don't like to put the hard work involved, I found a nice cheat in you ;D
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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2018, 06:37:27 PM »
ukgm said:

2) I d'know. Marie Buchanan is a world class female paddler. She took 14th at the ISA worlds and was 2nd at the King of the Cut downwinder in Oz. That's not too shabby.ď

Marie is a 40-something year old woman who is doing a lot better than a 40+ yr old woman from a country where she has virtually no direct competition should be doing. So I take my hat off to her. But I donít think she is even top 50 in the world right now - and the UK doesnít have any women in the top 30. On the menís side, apart from Aaron Rowe ranked 65 (and who paddles for the Channel Islands rather than under the UK flag) we have no-one inside the top 100. For an island nation of 67 million that has SUP races most weekends, thatís pitiful. By comparison, France has 13 men in the top 100. So there ya go - France has *thirteen times* as many top SUP racers as the UK. As a nation, we are crap at SUP racing, pure and simple. If that is to change the first thing we need to do is be realistic about what change would require. Excellence emerges from a culture of excellence. It doesnít take that much for it to happen, but it does require a spark from someone who is obviously world-class themselves, and who is willing to invest in the next generation, not just themselves. We donít have anyone like that.

ukgm

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2018, 12:32:22 AM »
1) Marie is a 40-something year old woman who is doing a lot better than a 40+ yr old woman from a country where she has virtually no direct competition should be doing.

2) But I donít think she is even top 50 in the world right now - and the UK doesnít have any women in the top 30.

3) On the menís side, apart from Aaron Rowe ranked 65 (and who paddles for the Channel Islands rather than under the UK flag) we have no-one inside the top 100. For an island nation of 67 million that has SUP races most weekends, thatís pitiful.

4) By comparison, France has 13 men in the top 100. So there ya go - France has *thirteen times* as many top SUP racers as the UK. As a nation, we are crap at SUP racing, pure and simple. If that is to change the first thing we need to do is be realistic about what change would require. Excellence emerges from a culture of excellence. It doesnít take that much for it to happen, but it does require a spark from someone who is obviously world-class themselves, and who is willing to invest in the next generation, not just themselves. We donít have anyone like that.

1) The reason she is so good has nothing to do with the number of other women competing or the weakness of the field. Her results of the internationals she has done shows that. Granted, our female strength and depth of racing is in a dire state here.

2) Well, you'd only know that if she chased points or was on the circuit - she doesn't and isn't. The ranking doesn't mean anything as a result. As I say, she qualifies for the finals at the ISA worlds comfortably so beyond that, it is hard to put an exact figure on her true ranking. I wouldn't get too hung up on her age - she can still beat most of the men here.

3) Under the 2018 ISA rules, we are not allowed to have separate nations for major events due to the ISA following the Olympic protocol. Aaron will paddle under team GB, not CI. Again, I know Aaron (and he doesn't chase international points) so his 65th ranking is meaningless. He's mainly interested in SUP surfing and when he has occasionally made forays overseas, he was international standard and made surf finals. Granted though, once you get past Aaron and Marie, things look decidedly thin here. Ryan James also pulls out a decent result against top paddlers when he wants to (but he doesn't compete overseas often either).

4) This only suggests that the French may be more motivated to engage in any ranking system or circuit whereas I know the brits frankly don't. However, I completely agree that the british strength and depth just isn't there (and I suspect that this shows no sign of changing). However, you're right, success does breed success (provided international or pro SUP participation is a desirable aim - I'm not sure it is..... that's how under-developed the sport is right now).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:11:37 AM by ukgm »

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2018, 01:17:12 AM »
Any decent athlete can have their day, if they pick their battles. Itís being motivated enough and physically capable of turning up to races and doing it over and over again consistently that distinguishes the great from the ďI got a one-way ticket to  PalookavilleĒ would-be contenders. We can all be potential champs sitting in our bedrooms.

And you missed my point about Marie having no competition, I think.

And Iím not sure you got the rest either. What it would take for the UK to excel on the international stage would be a set-up like they have in a Hood River or Currumbin. You need a trainer/manager who has intimate knowledge of what it takes to be the best in the world and has a commitment to finding and developing that person. We donít have an equivalent of the Carrumbin SUP Club or the Hood River junior racer development program. Where are our Hannah Hills equivalents, raising money so they can go racing?

https://www.gofundme.com/supracefund

She can look up to Fiona Wilde, and work with the same people who got her started. Is any world-class female (or Male for that matter) paddler in the UK spending hours of their own time helping to develop the next generation of racers (who are not related to them)? No. What you have is a few people of a certain age who occasionally come mid-pack on the international stage and then retreat home to carry on doing what they do with little impact on those around them. In short, we lack teachers, and we lack inspirational communicators and organisers with the political and interpersonal skills to draw people together and attract funding. Behind every exceptional athlete is a team who has created that person. Without that team you will get the occasional flash in the pan but thatís it.

And to argue that we (the UK) are doing OK really is exactly a sign of the problem of low expectations we have. No, we are not doing well at all. We as a nation are doing very badly. We will never be anything else but also-rans if we donít even know what good looks like. Well, Iíll tell you what good looks like. It looks like Hawaii. It looks like Australia. Anything else is just pissing in the wind. THAT is the attitude it takes to be good.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:39:38 AM by Area 10 »

ukgm

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2018, 02:29:34 AM »
1) Any decent athlete can have their day, if they pick their battles. Itís being motivated enough and physically capable of turning up to races and doing it over and over again consistently that distinguishes the great from the ďI got a one-way ticket to  PalookavilleĒ would-be contenders. We can all be potential champs sitting in our bedrooms.

2) And you missed my point about Marie having no competition, I think.

3) What it would take for the UK to excel on the international stage would be a set-up like they have in a Hood River or Currumbin.

4) She can look up to Fiona Wilde, and work with the same people who got her started. Is any world-class female (or Male for that matter) paddler in the UK spending hours of their own time helping to develop the next generation of racers (who are not related to them)? No. What you have is a few people of a certain age who occasionally come mid-pack on the international stage and then retreat home to carry on doing what they do with little impact on those around them. In short, we lack teachers, and we lack inspirational communicators and organisers with the political and interpersonal skills to draw people together and attract funding. Behind every exceptional athlete is a team who has created that person. Without that team you will get the occasional flash in the pan but thatís it.

5) It looks like Hawaii. It looks like Australia. Anything else is just pissing in the wind. THAT is the attitude it takes to be good.
1) Well, I'd argue that's event periodisation in some cases and a lack of the lifestyle (due to a semi-pro/amateur culture in the UK) in most others . As I mentioned earlier, paddlers over here aren't interested in the tours or the series. As a result, any good result is cherrypicked but insofar as endurance sport goes, there are no miracles. I don't judge an athlete based on competitive frequency personally.

2) Your point was about her ranking though. I don't give her domestic racing record much weight for the same reasons you would (the field strength is poor).

3) A massive sea change granted. I agree with you. It's made worse that there are currently only two male paddlers who are sub 23 years of age that have any commitment and they'd need major change in approach to make a run as an international athlete. The rest of us are too old or too slow. Our two young paddlers are more lifestyle orientated too. That's healthy but its not going to produce a world class athlete.

4) You're right but the main fault lies with our governing bodies too. There are currently initiatives I know of in place to change this but as things stand, the sport in the UK typically is catering for extremely fit amateur paddlers and weekend warriors. Let's not lose sight of the fact that SUP is a small niche sport anyway. Even in the US, Larry Cain wins events and he is pushing 60 soon. Its an unstable situation.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 02:33:17 AM by ukgm »

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2018, 05:29:26 AM »
Interesting discussion. I would add three things--one that can happen anywhere, and two that are limiting. First, you need a selfless and capable coach/organizer. Steve Gates' business (Big Winds) is dependent on the water sports activity level in Hood River, but that's more a resource and an excuse to spend the time, effort and money coaching kids than it is a reason. Results of the program speak for itself. There's a lot more strength on the bench than Fiona and Hannah. You need a Steve Gates, and there just aren't a lot of those around.

What isn't so obvious is the deep talent pool of Hood River--a town of 7500 people. An absurd proportion of that tiny number of permanent residents are world-class athletes and there's an even deeper pool of amateur multi-sport athletes. When people ask "what do you do?" in Hood River they don't mean "what's your job." That's the gene pool, and the expectations placed on young kids growing up here--both by their parents and their peers. Do something fun and hard. Kids like Hannah work multiple jobs to afford their equipment and support their program. And then they go train their asses off in every spare moment. It's the expected thing here.

And that leads to venue. People live in Hood River largely to access its incredible range of sport. It's not surprising that ski towns turn out great skiers. The Gorge is a giant outdoor gym, and watersports are at least half of the activity available. Unique. I've never been anywhere like it. It's why I moved here, but you can imagine what it's like for kids who grow up here.

My take on sports programs elsewhere is that they might have a much bigger overall pool to draw from, but they don't have the natural advantages that breed intensity and focus that odd places like Currumbin or Hood River already have.  I'm not sure that can be created, I suspect it just happens where the situation is fertile.
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pdxmike

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2018, 11:58:32 AM »
Interesting discussion. I would add three things--one that can happen anywhere, and two that are limiting. First, you need a selfless and capable coach/organizer. Steve Gates' business (Big Winds) is dependent on the water sports activity level in Hood River, but that's more a resource and an excuse to spend the time, effort and money coaching kids than it is a reason. Results of the program speak for itself. There's a lot more strength on the bench than Fiona and Hannah. You need a Steve Gates, and there just aren't a lot of those around.

What isn't so obvious is the deep talent pool of Hood River--a town of 7500 people. An absurd proportion of that tiny number of permanent residents are world-class athletes and there's an even deeper pool of amateur multi-sport athletes. When people ask "what do you do?" in Hood River they don't mean "what's your job." That's the gene pool, and the expectations placed on young kids growing up here--both by their parents and their peers. Do something fun and hard. Kids like Hannah work multiple jobs to afford their equipment and support their program. And then they go train their asses off in every spare moment. It's the expected thing here.

And that leads to venue. People live in Hood River largely to access its incredible range of sport. It's not surprising that ski towns turn out great skiers. The Gorge is a giant outdoor gym, and watersports are at least half of the activity available. Unique. I've never been anywhere like it. It's why I moved here, but you can imagine what it's like for kids who grow up here.

My take on sports programs elsewhere is that they might have a much bigger overall pool to draw from, but they don't have the natural advantages that breed intensity and focus that odd places like Currumbin or Hood River already have.  I'm not sure that can be created, I suspect it just happens where the situation is fertile.
I was talking to a photographer I know who lives just outside Hood River, telling her about standup there.  She said she's been wanting to try it but keeps putting it off, even though "my niece Fiona does it and keeps offering to take me out".  It was THAT Fiona, and she knew she was good, but like you said, that's just how it is in Hood River--your niece or neighbor being world class in an outdoor sport isn't a big deal.


I think Eugene has been similar with running.  I was visiting there once, and went out running looking for Pre's Trails.  I asked a guy who was running, and he said he was going there himself, so I joined him.  He said he'd run the 5000m an all-comers' meet a few days before, and when I asked him how he did, he told me a world-class time, as if it were nothing.  It was Mike Boit, one of the world's fastest distance runners.  Then we were running along and Rudy Chapa--another world-class runner--appeared and ran with us.  Anywhere else the odds of that happening...

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #83 on: May 18, 2018, 11:31:00 AM »
Personally, I advocated use of the ĎStroke Indexí (SI). To calculate your SI, you merely multiply your average speed in metres per second by its average distance per stroke in metres. This goes a little way to normalising the changes you might make when paddling by producing a score that really is a near surrogate for your paddling efficiency (using the metrics we can realistically access at the moment).

I'm struggling to understand what this stroke index actually measures. Multiplying speed by distance per stroke gives you a product in units of meters^2/stroke*sec. I can't figure out what a stroke*sec describes, much less how dividing an area by it tells me anything about the efficiency of my stroke!  ???

Dividing speed by heart rate strikes me as a much simpler and more intuitive index of paddle efficiency that's also easily calculated from SpeedCoach or smartphone app data. The resulting quotient is in units of meters per heartbeat, roughly distance per unit of effort, which is what I want to maximize, whether racing or touring. All the other stuff like stroke rate, power etc might help explain how a particular change in technique increases or decreases efficiency, but all I really want to know is whether that change lets me travel farther with the same level of effort.


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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2018, 12:27:09 PM »
Try as I might I do not see how Stroke Index is useful for your tests, ukgm.

The swimming article you linked me to did not explain itís use at all (and did a very muddled and downright poor data analysis). I read it twice and it didnít make any point, whether clear or not. Best I could gather is SI is used mostly to try compare swimming styles among each other. No surprise that freestyle has the bigger SI.

Ukgm, you said yourself [above] that different paddlers use different cadences. So letís take a simple real life example.

Look at the finish of the SUP race in Japan (on SUP racer facebook page) with Connor and Noic paddling side by side. They go the same speed yet Noic clearly uses a much slower cadence. So therefore Noicís ďdistance per strokeĒ is greater. We agree so far?

They are both going the same speed so by multiplying that same speed by their different  ďdistance per strokeĒ's and Noic therefore has a greater SI than Connor.

What the hell point that that show us? And how is this at all useful for the tests you use SI in?

Just measure speed, man. I wouldnít even try to measure power input because youíll miss something. Keep it simple. And use a lot more paddlers. Preferably world class ones. Elite paddlers will be able to better control a constant output than amateurs. Your tests using one person are useful only for that one person. You.

I continue to very much not see how SI makes sense for the application you use it for. Didnít make sense day one. Makes less the more I think about it.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:29:56 PM by yugi »

ukgm

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #85 on: May 18, 2018, 02:25:19 PM »
Try as I might I do not see how Stroke Index is useful for your tests, ukgm.

The swimming article you linked me to did not explain itís use at all (and did a very muddled and downright poor data analysis). I read it twice and it didnít make any point, whether clear or not. Best I could gather is SI is used mostly to try compare swimming styles among each other. No surprise that freestyle has the bigger SI.

Ukgm, you said yourself [above] that different paddlers use different cadences. So letís take a simple real life example.

Look at the finish of the SUP race in Japan (on SUP racer facebook page) with Connor and Noic paddling side by side. They go the same speed yet Noic clearly uses a much slower cadence. So therefore Noicís ďdistance per strokeĒ is greater. We agree so far?

They are both going the same speed so by multiplying that same speed by their different  ďdistance per strokeĒ's and Noic therefore has a greater SI than Connor.

What the hell point that that show us? And how is this at all useful for the tests you use SI in?

Just measure speed, man. I wouldnít even try to measure power input because youíll miss something. Keep it simple. And use a lot more paddlers. Preferably world class ones. Elite paddlers will be able to better control a constant output than amateurs. Your tests using one person are useful only for that one person. You.

I continue to very much not see how SI makes sense for the application you use it for. Didnít make sense day one. Makes less the more I think about it.

In your example of two paddlers, it would infer that one paddler may well be more inefficient than another. However, this was never my point. My articles clearly stated that I had appropriated it's use slightly differently for the purpose of allowing a single paddler to have the means to compare changes in their own equipment to determine their best choices. It's for relative checks, not absolute comparisons of a large sample group. The changes in SI act as a surrogate to their efficiency. You criticise the use of a single paddler but that was exactly its actual stated purpose in my articles. If you test a sample of paddlers making the same change, you'll get an answer if an equipment change is generally beneficial - but that isn't what an individual athlete needs. They need to know if it's good for them personally (and then if the results have both precision and accuracy to be considered viable). Your suggestion of assessing world class paddlers is wrong as the results would not be  transferable. You seem like a smart guy so I can only assume you haven't read my articles yet fully so as to then miss these details or see my stated limitations or intent of its use.

SI is a peer reviewed concept from multiple authors. Take a look at Larry Cains use for testing two Allstars on his blog page too. We also both used secondary metrics to support the test data. My take on SI is slightly different but comes out in a peer reviewed journal shortly. It may not be to your liking and that's your prerogative.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 02:45:36 PM by ukgm »

ukgm

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2018, 02:35:29 PM »
Personally, I advocated use of the ĎStroke Indexí (SI). To calculate your SI, you merely multiply your average speed in metres per second by its average distance per stroke in metres. This goes a little way to normalising the changes you might make when paddling by producing a score that really is a near surrogate for your paddling efficiency (using the metrics we can realistically access at the moment).

I'm struggling to understand what this stroke index actually measures. Multiplying speed by distance per stroke gives you a product in units of meters^2/stroke*sec. I can't figure out what a stroke*sec describes, much less how dividing an area by it tells me anything about the efficiency of my stroke!  ???

Dividing speed by heart rate strikes me as a much simpler and more intuitive index of paddle efficiency that's also easily calculated from SpeedCoach or smartphone app data. The resulting quotient is in units of meters per heartbeat, roughly distance per unit of effort, which is what I want to maximize, whether racing or touring. All the other stuff like stroke rate, power etc might help explain how a particular change in technique increases or decreases efficiency, but all I really want to know is whether that change lets me travel farther with the same level of effort.

For what it's worth, you'll see in my articles that I used multiple types of indices to do exactly that - not just SI. I used a IO index (input output index) too. I don't express either as an area. I also wouldn't use heart rate as a metric though - you'll need a long test interval for it to stabilise and then you won't be able to do enough test runs to know the precision of your testing session. Without that, the testing won't be any good.
If you'd like to see this, go to the SUPboarder mag website and search for fin, paddle or board tests by Bryce Dyer. The series of two or three articles should explain it better than I can do here. Alternatively, look on Larry Cains blog page for when he tests two different Starboard Allstars and uses it too. Likewise, he uses multiple indices and metrics too.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 02:54:41 PM by ukgm »

connector14

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2018, 03:53:10 PM »
Sometime soon I am going to do a thorough analysis of my latest board acquisition...a 14 Imagine Rocket.
I will be using my latest formula which I call SS.
(Smiles per stroke) for those that aren't familiar with the system. ):...........
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Luc Benac

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2018, 03:58:29 PM »
Sometime soon I am going to do a thorough analysis of my latest board acquisition...a 14 Imagine Rocket.
I will be using my latest formula which I call SS.
(Smiles per stroke) for those that aren't familiar with the system. ):...........

Does it take into considerations blisters...?
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connector14

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2018, 05:26:23 PM »
No problem....I'm old enough and have been at it long enough for my blisters to have turned into calluses :)...
Paint blisters, well.....that's another matter. My new board arrived with some cosmetic damage and now I have to try and fix it before I get it wet. I'm not so happy about that.....but at least Paddleboard Specialists are taking good care of me and hopefully the shipper will take care of them. Damn risky shipping a delicate paddleboard across the US these days. Somebody needs to invent a custom "Spock Box" for shipping and travel for these expensive slices of carbon and foam and glass.
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