Stroke Rate for Distance

[PonoBill]

I know for certain that if I paddled like Connor does that I'd be in traction shortly thereafter. My back would explode. I've watched some elite paddlers radically change their stroke over the years, perhaps in response to the toll it was taking on their body, perhaps to accommodate a new Technique. Travis Grant adopted a lot of the Johnny Puakea stroke a few years ago--at least the catch part of the stroke. Annabel Anderson changed her stroke quite a bit a few years ago. She gave me a hard time about saying that in this forum (I guess Annabel reads the Zone sometimes) during a shuttle ride shortly thereafter, but I didn't get the impression that it was because I was wrong, she just didn't want anyone talking about it.

[ukgm]

I think it's clear to anyone paddling that even if your stroke looked identical on video to a top paddler, that doesn't mean you get the same results.  They just seem to explode forward and you don't.

So very true! I think it's most likely the things you can't see on the video. Travis Grant talks a lot about core engagement, that's very hard to see on video and nearly impossible
to replicate and apply by your self. It is as natural movement as biting your toe nails (don't ask me how I know) but when successfully applied, the benefits are immense.

Tried it few times to the best of my understanding of how and when in the sequence of the stroke. The GPS don't lie, I could immediately see the jump in pace and the relief on other muscles.
I can only imagine the results if I was to apply it really well and improve the sequencing. The problem is it takes so much focus and drive, much more than I have to give. Every now and again
I lose sleep over it and then give it one more shot the next day, it lasts about 15 minutes...

My view as far as racing alone goes that in lieu of the holy grail of possessing perfect technique, frankly, many paddlers would benefit from training more frequently and with a closer eye on the quality and specificity of that training. Many racers I see just aren't either doing enough or when they do, its too little quality and too much junk. Mind you, until we get the kind of telemetry Ponobill details fantastically, the quantification of getting this right by using existing technology is going to be a little of a blunt force instrument for now. I'd tell most paddlers to throw their heart rate monitors away for a start...

[Area 10]

Funny that - when I was training for races I think I trained too often. It depends so much on your age and your previous history of fitness training. So it’s hard to give blanket advice. IMO if you are over about 45 it’s recovery ability that determines training frequency and volume rather than will, education or intent. You start crashing up against some uncomfortable biological realities that had never even occurred to you when you were under 40. Overtraining syndrome is a bitch.

Most of the racers you will be interacting with in the UK will be old farts. So their routines are already being biologically limited in a way that eg. Connor Baxter’s isn’t. Which may be partly why you are seeing so many people with light or apparently lackadaisical training schedules.

Another 10 years and you’ll know what I mean...

[ukgm]

1) Funny that - when I was training for races I think I trained too often.
2) It depends so much on your age and your previous history of fitness training. So it’s hard to give blanket advice.
3) IMO if you are over about 45 it’s recovery ability that determines training frequency and volume rather than will, education or intent.
4) You start crashing up against some uncomfortable biological realities that had never even occurred to you when you were under 40. Overtraining syndrome is a bitch.
5) Most of the racers you will be interacting with in the UK will be old farts. So their routines are already being biologically limited in a way that eg. Connor Baxter’s isn’t.
6) Which may be partly why you are seeing so many people with light or apparently lackadaisical training schedules.

1) I would argue that there is a difference between 'overtraining' and 'overeaching'. The first is chronic whilst the second is more common and relatively temporary and sometimes you really should do the latter (but not go as so far as the former). There is some modern software out there (such as training peaks or WKO) that allows people to get a better handle on what is going on. In the main though (and this is common across many endurance sports now) athletes are being encouraged to race less as racing doesn't generate a great training overload and can require more recovery than a well thought out training session.

2) Absolutely. I personally believe that many current racers at a domestic level haven't done a lot of competing and may well be late starters as SUP may have been a lifestyle choice first and a competitive sport second. That puts a real ceiling on what you can achieve. However, if you're careful, what you find with training is the more you do, the more you can handle (scaled for age and experience as you say). I've got 25 years of consistent training so its easier for me to tolerate a 12+ hour week than someone who started at 35. However, I can tell you that its taken me that 25 years to get here and its been a struggle as my numbers in the lab aren't that impressive.

3) It's always about recovery - irrespective of age. So many of us get this wrong. That's where you make the gains, not doing the training. It's just as you go 50+ you're going to need increasingly more of it. I test the water occasionally but I still have found that for me, as a rule, I need to alternate between one hard day and one easy day with one full day off a week. Any more and I'll be over-reaching within 2-3 weeks.

4) Time is ultimately against you. I always like the line from the film 'Moneyball': "We're all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children's game, we just don't... don't know when that's gonna be. Some of us are told at eighteen, some of us are told at forty...... but we're all told."

5) Not as much as people think. The way athletes are training now is reshaping the preconceptions of when the fat lady should be singing. I know of many athletes (granted, in low impact sports) that are now seeing little drop off from 40-50 and its not the cliff edge it used to be (I'll let you know when I get there - I'm 43). The key thing is knowing what to do, when to do it and why you're doing it.

6) I think this is solely due to SUP being a lifestyle choice first, a racing outlet second for pretty much all of us. It's not like swimming, biking or running really. Hell, I only paddle at all to act as the antithesis of my bike racing and I don't do any structured training for SUP at all.

[burchas]

My view as far as racing alone goes that in lieu of the holy grail of possessing perfect technique, frankly, many paddlers would benefit from training more frequently and with a closer eye on the quality and specificity of that training...

Well, for every paddler following this advice, especially the "quality and specificity" part, perfect technique wouldn't lag far behind, but only in a perfect world.

In the real world most people don't have the "know how" to achieve that. Even folks that do know how, have hard time self train. Building and constantly 
updating an articulated training plan takes a lot of effort, know how and even creativity that only a good coach that knows you can provide.
Technology can get you so far, but you really have to know what to do with all the readings you'll get from this fancy telemetry and put it together in a meaningful way.

It's just easier to go for a 3 hour paddle and, have the occasional brain fart of practicing technique for 5 minutes, perform 2 pivot turns and go on with your day.

[ukgm]

1) Well, for every paddler following this advice, especially the "quality and specificity" part, perfect technique wouldn't lag far behind, but only in a perfect world.

2) In the real world most people don't have the "know how" to achieve that. Even folks that do know how, have hard time self train. Building and constantly 
updating an articulated training plan takes a lot of effort, know how and even creativity that only a good coach that knows you can provide.

3) Technology can get you so far, but you really have to know what to do with all the readings you'll get from this fancy telemetry and put it together in a meaningful way.

4) It's just easier to go for a 3 hour paddle and, have the occasional brain fart of practicing technique for 5 minutes, perform 2 pivot turns and go on with your day.

1) Well, to put it in a car context, 'if your car handles like crap, at least try and compensate by making sure its got some horsepower'.

2) I agree. Look at the rise of services like Paddlemonster. I personally neither like the model or see it as proper coaching but the market will take what it can offer if it reduces brain matter time.

3) Again, I completely agree with you. I know of hell of a lot of runners with heart rate monitors or cyclists with power meters that are little more than expensive speedo's.

4) I would say (ignoring the pleasure factor for a moment) of why go for a 3 hour paddle if you can get the same results in 2. There aren't any short cuts but its all too damn easy to waste time on junk mileage.

[burchas]

I would say (ignoring the pleasure factor for a moment) of why go for a 3 hour paddle if you can get the same results in 2. There aren't any short cuts but its all too damn easy to waste time on junk mileage.

Unfortunately, wasting time on junk is the easiest thing to do in every aspect of our lives.
eating junk food, watching junk shows, reading junk news/information and so on. It's just there front and center and in abundance.

That's why you shouldn't ignore the pleasure factor. Look at it this way, I maybe wasting time on on junk milage but at least it is
time away from all the harmful junk mentioned above and at the end of the day it has and will make me a better paddles, even if not elite.

[Area 10]

And there, folks, is the manifesto of the “slacker paddler”.

The great thing about not racing is you can make pure enjoyment your aim. It’s like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders

Just please yourself and leave all the struggling, grunting, fighting, ego, and disappointment to the poor racers

[connector14]

That works for me.......

[pdxmike]

This is all reminding me that of all the sports I've done, they've all been competitive, but the competition itself hasn't been what motivates me.  The competition is a tool to become more skilled.  What motivates me to improve paddling is a desire to be able to have a smooth, strong stroke so I can cover distance seemingly effortlessly, as the best paddlers do.  Same with swimming--the idea of having a smooth, graceful, powerful stroke.  Same with running--I remember seeing Frank Shorter looking like he was gliding effortlessly through the 1972 Munich marathon, and that became my goal to be able to run like that. 


If you want to learn how to do a sport well, you learn from the people who have mastered the sport, and (at least in the sports I've done) you find those people in racing.   But the racing itself doesn't have to be the real motivation, even for people who are racing and training for racing.

[Luc Benac]

This is all reminding me that of all the sports I've done, they've all been competitive, but the competition itself hasn't been what motivates me.  The competition is a tool to become more skilled.  What motivates me to improve paddling is a desire to be able to have a smooth, strong stroke so I can cover distance seemingly effortlessly, as the best paddlers do. 
If you want to learn how to do a sport well, you learn from the people who have mastered the sport, and (at least in the sports I've done) you find those people in racing.   But the racing itself doesn't have to be the real motivation, even for people who are racing and training for racing.

I am totally with you there. I do two or three "races" a year just to take my own temperature in the big scale of progress or lack of.
All have two things in common:
1) They are over 14km
2) They are in a very scenic place (even if I paddle the same places most week-ends of the year, they are still beautiful places)

[burchas]

This is all reminding me that of all the sports I've done, they've all been competitive, but the competition itself hasn't been what motivates me.  The competition is a tool to become more skilled.  What motivates me to improve paddling is a desire to be able to have a smooth, strong stroke so I can cover distance seemingly effortlessly, as the best paddlers do.  Same with swimming--the idea of having a smooth, graceful, powerful stroke.  Same with running--I remember seeing Frank Shorter looking like he was gliding effortlessly through the 1972 Munich marathon, and that became my goal to be able to run like that. 


If you want to learn how to do a sport well, you learn from the people who have mastered the sport, and (at least in the sports I've done) you find those people in racing.   But the racing itself doesn't have to be the real motivation, even for people who are racing and training for racing.

Yap, that's pretty much summarize it, at least for me.

[Area 10]

You guys are lucky to have racers who will share their technique knowledge with you. In the UK the top racers don’t really do that - well, not without money changing hands, anyway. Maybe not even then. If they’ve found a way to beat the next guy they are going to keep that to themselves. The only real source of information (beyond the beginner level) is the interweb.

There are a couple of exceptions, but in general I don’t think our racers see it as their job to be ambassadors for the sport. They are just their to win, and to squeeze a bit of money out of the sponsors/public if they can. We don’t have any SUP racer who has really excelled on the interntional stage, like you could say of France, Spain, the Netherlands etc (and even tiny Denmark!). So it’s not clear to me that anyone here knows much more than anyone else. Mostly the guys (and girls) that are winning are doing so just because they are semi-pro athletes (and/or are younger than their competitors) with time on their hands for training, not because they have amazing technique I think. So it’s not clear to me who I’d turn to to learn this buttery smooth effortless technique of which you speak. I’m not even sure that many of the top racers here actually love the sport, rather than that they do it because they like to win. If they stopped winning, they’d switch sport, I suspect.

Maybe this is why I’m a bit jaded about what racing has to offer, in terms of pure enjoyment of paddling.

[Luc Benac]

Well I take coaching with one of our top paddler in Canada from time to time. So some money change hands but I am also regularly paddling with him for fun.
He is an extraordinary long distance paddler so that works better than otherwise.
I have also gone to some clinics with the like of Boothy and Applesteeze but these are usually really focused on racing so of less interest to me.
Next time Travis Grant is around here, if I can I will go to one of his clinic bypassing the corresponding race.... Sure would like to see his take on stroke in general.

[ukgm]

1) In the UK the top racers don’t really do that - well, not without money changing hands, anyway.

2) We don’t have any SUP racer who has really excelled on the interntional stage, like you could say of France, Spain, the Netherlands etc (and even tiny Denmark!).

3) If they stopped winning, they’d switch sport, I suspect.

1) Actually, I've never found that to be the case. In fact, I've found the opposite that people are unusually open about it in the UK. However, I do find you have to be 'in the scene' to gain the trust. I often get asked to put content out on the web or magazines which I don't mind as SUP is not my main sport. I do agree with you that some others do this for profit or sponsor obligation but, face to face, everyone I know is very open if you ask them.

2) I d'know. Marie Buchanan is a world class female paddler. She took 14th at the ISA worlds and was 2nd at the King of the Cut downwinder in Oz. That's not too shabby.

3) Again, I don't see this. Many of the top people in the UK are originally from lifestyle sports so don't seem to have the need to be competitive somewhere (like someone like myself would be). Mind you, I only got into SUP to replace going to the gym so even if I don't race (and I'm not doing much this year due to other projects), I still paddle 2-3 times a week for conditioning.