Author Topic: Stroke Rate for Distance  (Read 28051 times)

10generation

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Stroke Rate for Distance
« on: May 08, 2018, 12:58:32 PM »
I'm currently seem to be paddling around a 30 spm and about 10/10.5 feet per stroke on my red 13'2" inflatable according to my garmin. Research I'm doing on the web seems to imply that is a very slow rate.  It doesn't feel particularly slow or fast to me.

I have no idea if my distance per stroke is good, bad or average, be great to get some thoughts?

I have zero interest in racing, I'm interested in building the strength and conditioning to paddle long distances.  Do I need to work at getting my SPM up or my distance per stroke?  I'm assuming I should do some higher SPM work for shorter duration as part of training? 

Thanks for any insights.




Area 10

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 01:35:11 PM »
That’s a slow pace for sure. It’s a reasonable distance per stroke but you are probably partly getting that because your stroke rate is so slow: if I pulled one hard stroke and then just glided as far as I could go before coming to a complete halt my distance per stroke would look spectacular. But I’d be very slow.

But if you aren’t racing then why worry? Better to concentrate on developing an efficient stroke that is easy on the body. The current trend in paddle technique is driven by hyper-fit racers. The stroke technique that is appropriate for them is probably completely wrong for a non-racing endurance paddler.

Probably the most *efficient* stroke (although no doubt not the fastest) was the so-called Tahitian stroke taught by Dave Kalama as few years back. It emphasised minimising movements to be efficient, which is quite different from the current “slut drop” type technique used by Connor etc for elite racing. If you want to go moderately fast over long distances without wearing yourself out it’s still a good technique IMO. Try that and a spm of around 45 and you should be good to go.

connector14

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2018, 01:55:41 PM »
I paddle for fitness and fun and love to track my sessions using GPS and heart rate monitor and an app on my phone called Endomondo. I generally aim for a 3 mile stent,  then take a breather for maybe 5 minutes,  then another 3 mile stent. So 6 miles is always my goal,  but sometimes I go further and sometimes less. Weather, wind and tide are the biggest factors for me. I have a number of different boards to choose from to match conditions. If it is looking like it is going to stay pretty calm and flat I will take my Red Paddle 14 Elite. It can get a little tricky when it starts to get rough,  or when there are lots of boat wakes. For rougher days I take my Connector 14 which is 29" wide and is more stable. If my wife is not going I sometimes take her Bark 14 Dominator...it's fast and pretty stable.
At any rate,  I try to keep a pretty steady pace somewhere around 40-50 spm...but I am guessing on the rate as I do not have a way to track it like the Garmin watches connected to Garmin Connect app. My wife uses it,  so maybe I should borrow her watch sometime to record my rate.
I paddled 6 miles today using her Bark and my average speed was 4.14mph and my average heart rate 122bpm...max was 138bpm. It was sunny and 63 degrees and the wind was 4 mph. These numbers are pretty average for me. If it is rough out my max heart rate will get up to 160bpm as the legs really have to work hard to balance.
I am 66 years old and either paddle or walk everyday to stay in shape. I am 5'8" and weigh 156 lbs.
Paddleboarding is my passion and thank goodness my wife will go with me when it is not windy or rough.
We both always track our sessions as well as our food and calories on MyFitnessPal. We lost 30 lbs each in the last 2 years of paddling and cut our cholesterol numbers in half....making our doctor very happy. No statins for me or my wife !
I recently bought a Samsung Gear Sport thinking it would do everything I wanted,  but I returned it because it was so hard to read while out on the water and the heart rate didn't seem accurate compared to my Scosche  arm band linked to my phone and garmin 78sc on the deck. My wife uses a new Garmin 735XT and it seems to be doing ok......and I like that the Garmin Connect app tracks paddleboarding as an activity and shows stroke rate and distance per stroke. I may have to step up to that one of these days. But in the meantime I just ordered another new board so I busted my budget.......I have a new 14 Imagine Rocket coming next week. Can't wait to get out on it!
Good luck with your paddling......what are you using to track your sessions?
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connector14

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2018, 02:31:55 PM »
http://www.davidkalama.com/tempo/

I just found this and it is an interesting read on the subject of "tempo".........
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hbsteve

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2018, 05:08:11 PM »
An easy way to increase stroke rate and keep up board speed is to decrease recovery time.  After the paddle is out of the water, don't rely on the board to glide.  Get the paddle back in the water.

warmuth

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 07:45:56 PM »
  It’s probably not worth worrying about. Just make sure you have good technique on your stroke. Spm is an effort level, good technique improves it to a point, after that it’s about cardio fitness. You can cover the same distance whether you paddle 30spm or 45, it just changes the time it takes to do it in. Distance per stroke has never really been all that helpful to me, too many factors can impact it.

pdxmike

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2018, 08:11:06 PM »
I also wouldn't worry about distance per stroke too much.  Not that it's not important, but if you focus on it, it gets tempting to start distorting your stroke to improve your distance per stroke.  These things will all increase your DPS:  Gliding too long (as people have mentioned), using a paddle that's too long, reaching too far forward, pulling too far back, slowing down your recovery...all bad for speed and efficiency.  Of course if you can add an inch or two distance per stroke WITHOUT cutting tempo or increasing effort too much, then that's good.


Distance per stroke became a big thing with swimmers a few years ago, especially triathletes who went to workshops that focused on that.  People distorted their whole strokes trying to go further--which they did, but at the expense of speed and efficiency. 


If you measure both rate and distance, try a series of runs, going from a very slow rate to a ridiculously fast one.  You'll find you're fastest somewhere in between the extremes.  You'll also find your effort gets ridiculously high at the extremes.  It's similar to using gears on a bike.  Also as Area 10 said, the strokes and tempos top paddlers use are what works for their extremely fit bodies, not typical paddlers.

ukgm

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2018, 11:46:49 PM »
Personally, I advocated use of the ‘Stroke Index’ (SI). To calculate your SI, you merely multiply your average speed in metres per second by its average distance per stroke in metres. This goes a little way to normalising the changes you might make when paddling by producing a score that really is a near surrogate for your paddling efficiency (using the metrics we can realistically access at the moment).

yugi

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2018, 05:37:12 AM »
SUP


 Better to concentrate on developing an efficient stroke that is easy on the body.


Absolutly.


 Better to concentrate on developing an efficient stroke that is easy on the body. The current trend in paddle technique is driven by hyper-fit racers. The stroke technique that is appropriate for them is probably completely wrong for a non-racing endurance paddler.


Disagree.

I believe the current trend in elite paddlers is precisely that efficient stroke which is more balanced for the body.



burchas

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2018, 06:29:31 AM »
If you are going to bring up your stroke rate, might I suggest looking at your blade size.
Sometimes slow SPM indicates too large of a blade. If that is the case speeding your SPM
considerably without adjusting blade size might cause injuries.

You might be able to achieve same distance per stroke with just a better technique and a smaller
blade size and eliminate the extra stress on the body which is important for long distance.

Realistically, the distance per stroke data is the last thing I'm looking at in the continues cycle of
improving technique and equipment. I only circle back to it after introducing new moves to my
stroke or when changing board or paddle, just as a reference point to gauge progress.
in progress...

Luc Benac

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2018, 01:28:11 PM »
Personally, I advocated use of the ‘Stroke Index’ (SI). To calculate your SI, you merely multiply your average speed in metres per second by its average distance per stroke in metres. This goes a little way to normalising the changes you might make when paddling by producing a score that really is a near surrogate for your paddling efficiency (using the metrics we can realistically access at the moment).

Hello Bryce,
I probably need to get more detail from you on the topic.

It seems to me that the SI works only when:
1) The level of effort is constant (which I believe you included in your assumptions in your various articles)
2) Short distances where the condition do not affect the results

I have tried to look at SI for my paddling data which is in open conditions and distances of 12-15km.
I have attached a sample for one board and a couple of paddles for comparison.
It looks like the SI is contradicting the overall speed in the sense that the highest SI are showing for the slowest runs.
Over the last months I have steadily increased my SPM from 36 to 40 which resulted in shorter DPS. I have also reduced the surface of my paddle blades.

Looking at the SI now is bringing more confusion in my mind as it seems to revoke the idea of smaller blade, higher rate and fastest speed that I have been experiencing.
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Luc Benac

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2018, 07:09:15 AM »
Reading again some of Bryce articles (board testing, paddle testing) and a scientific paper he had referenced it looks like the use of I/O ratio (speed/stroke rate) and Stroke Index is limited to time trial using the same maintained speed on the same distance. A measure of the level of effort or efficiency for the same output. It would not then apply to data collected on many different conditions, speed and distance.
Unless I misunderstood the whole thing and then I am still scratching my head.
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burchas

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2018, 09:04:09 AM »
Reading again some of Bryce articles (board testing, paddle testing) and a scientific paper he had referenced it looks like the use of I/O ratio (speed/stroke rate) and Stroke Index is limited to time trial using the same maintained speed on the same distance. A measure of the level of effort or efficiency for the same output. It would not then apply to data collected on many different conditions, speed and distance.
Unless I misunderstood the whole thing and then I am still scratching my head.

Stop scratching your head Luc, you have nice hair and I hate to see you loosing it over this ;D

But seriously, I don't see how SI can work for open water, too many variables to be reliable or useful.
in progress...

Area 10

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2018, 09:29:13 AM »
Yeah I wouldn’t worry too much about Bryce’s formulae: He would probably like SUP races to be held in an indoor tank where everything can be measured and every session is the same like this:

https://distressedmullet.com/2012/05/24/quickblade-train-hard-jamie-candice-and-anthony-v02-testing-in-the-flume-by-soul-surf-media/

:) :)

Also some good indications in that video of the different stroke rates of the different athletes, and you can see the differences in their stroke techniques. Each has found a method that works for their body.

I’m sure that Bryce will be able to tell us if Jamie Mitchell’s VO2 performance in the video is any good :)

Incidentally, Wow - can’t believe that vid was from 6 years ago now.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 09:37:29 AM by Area 10 »

10generation

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Re: Stroke Rate for Distance
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 10:32:41 PM »
Thanks very much!

Think I'm going to take Burchas recommendation and go down in size a bit to a mana 82, see what happens.

Thought the list of things that increase distance per stroke but were suboptimal were interesting - gliding too long, etc.  I currently use werner adjustable paddles and am really struggling to land on one paddle length - move it around depending on how I'm feeling.


 


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