Author Topic: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil  (Read 441 times)

IRideYellow

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foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« on: April 16, 2018, 11:59:16 AM »
So while learning to foil on a 7'10 surf sup I have notice that I need almost glassy conditions to get enough forward momentum take off and then successfully get positioned.  Otherwise the wave passes me by or I'm in the wrong place (because of the instability induced by trying to get into the wave) after the foil lifts which is always leads to a crash

Are sup boards made just for foiling substantially more stable and glide better then the average surf sup?   I'm only on session 3 so I know it may be too early to expect much.

Thanks
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Dwight (DW)

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 12:49:35 PM »
 A dedicated foil board will make getting more flying time easier, but it won’t make you any more stable once airborne. That just takes flight hours.

IRideYellow

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 02:22:49 PM »
By instability what I mean is I'm unstable before the foil lifts from trying to catch the wave.  Foil sup boards they look like they would be able to glide to lift speed on not so steep wave whereas a smaller surf sup requires some hard and fast paddling to get to speed to catch the wave or generate enough speed to cause the foil to lift.  I'm riding a GoFoil 200 and weigh 225 wet.

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DailyBread Surf Photo

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 04:12:52 PM »
is your foil level or is the box following your tail rocker meaning the foil is at an angle going through the water when paddling?

PonoBill

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 05:03:01 PM »
^^My question also. If the angle of attack of the foil is down when you are standing in the normal takeoff position then the wing drags like crazy and you have to get the nose up before the foil even begins to lift. It's also important to get your feet into the right spots. If your front foot is too far forward you might be forcing the wing into a downward AOA and making it hard to catch a wave.

When you catch the wave your front foot needs to be in the right spot and you need to move your back foot over the mast. Take a look at Sam Pae's video on proper stance and body angle. If your hips aren't square to the board it will be hard to control the board in transition. Even when the board is still in the water but the wing is lifting you need to stand hips forward, shoulders square, head up.

I see newer guys than me (yes, there are a few) standing in something between hips forward and surf stance, and then when the foil starts to lift they stick their ass out one way and their head the other. Unstable. Hanging your body weight out over the center of lift of the foil is going to make the foil wobble.

The other big mistake is leaning forward from your waist with your head down instead of shifting weight over your legs by moving your core forward or back. Sam's video is super valuable for this. I learned it from Kathy Shipman, who could be the poster girl for best posture and control on a foil. Sam's a lot lumpier, but his instruction was hugely helpful for me, and his position when he's riding a foil is downright graceful for such a big dude. You have to exaggerate the posture to get it right. When you think you're doing it, you aren't.

This is a facebook link, I don't know where it's actually housed:
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 05:07:09 PM by PonoBill »
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Newps

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 05:29:09 PM »
Thank you for posting that Bill.  Super helpful the way he broke it down.  I am going to practicing that stance with my paddle in hand in front of a mirror.  I've got to break my habit of head down and leaning.
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'4" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 112L
L41 SIMSUP S5 - 7'6" x 27 1/2" x 4 3/16" 106L
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'8" x 31"x 4 1/2" 122L - Modded w/ a King's TUT Tuttle box and using a King's foil.
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'10" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 120L

PonoBill

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 05:39:46 PM »
Glad it helped. Sam's an ace at figuring things out and explaining visually.

One more thing. At some point I started feeling that I was catching waves much more easily when I was "kicking" the board into the wave--giving a forward thrust with my feet, like a little pump, only focused more on pushing the tail rather than lifting the nose. In fact, I could tell when I was going to miss a wave because I didn't feel that kick. What I finally realized is that I was feeling the release of getting the wing into the right AOA--dropping drag by more than 50 percent feels like the board suddenly got a boot in the ass. Moving my front foot back a half inch did the same thing, instantly doubling my wave count. It also doubled my crashes before I got used to getting further over my front foot as soon as the foil started lifting.
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norcom

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 05:50:59 PM »
Hah! I'm on my second session with a 7'10 138L Takuma board. I'm around 180lbs wet. It's definitely not what I was expecting after using my 14' and a 10'10 boards. I can barely get out over the shore break on my knees and then balancing long enough to get it moving straight is an act of futility. Though I'm not using it in conditions any surfer would consider "waves". This is in wind generated cross chop with some occasional things that may look like waves. I do much better on a kite or windsurfer in this. But it's all I have close to home, so that's what I've been trying it in. Basically if there's no wind, there are no waves here. The closes Surfline report starts within a two hour drive West from deep in the Panhandle. Not sure if I'll ever be able to use it in these conditions without sticking a sail on the board. Now I'm wondeirng if I should have just stuck the foil on the 10'10 or maybe if I should get the super huge wings so I can try in less wind and barely any "waves". I'm having fun though.  ;D

PonoBill

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 06:42:56 PM »
It takes a while to get used to the stability of a foil board because it's so different from a standard SUP. First of all, get up off your knees. they work SO much better standing, especially once you get your sea legs. If you're braced on your knees you are tightly coupled to the board, which means you're whipping the wing around underneath. If you're standing, you are loosely coupled. Move your feet inward toward the stringer to make it even less so. The board takes care of itself, you just need to take care of you.

Stepping back to go over a wave doesn't work--you'll go over backward. You need to keep your weight forward. Don't worry about the nose, the foil keeps the board pushing through the wave and keeps the nose from lifting if you have your weight centered and forward. Once you get used to the different feel of a foilboard, you'll be falling all over the place on your SUP. I can paddle right through whitewater that would be a challenge on a SUP surfboard. My mantra is "don't do anything, don't do anything..." because all the stuff you'd do to get through the wave is not only unnecessary, it also tosses you off.  Stay straight, paddle right through like it wasn't there, weight your front leg. That's it, that's all.

Same thing with cross chop and waves taken from the side. Ignore them and carry on. You have a great big wing two feet down that's minimizing the motion of the board. It's all your surfboard reflexes that are tossing you in the water.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 06:49:27 PM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dusk Patrol

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Re: foil boards vs regular sup with a foil
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2018, 11:07:51 AM »
So Bill, do you paddle out in surf stance?  or even more exaggerated, feet close to stringer?

If you ever find yourself with nothing to do  8)  consider collecting all these practical tips for learning how to foil, and consolidating them into one... It will be like a bible, and you will be like the author of the bible.. cool huh?   
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