Author Topic: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?  (Read 1628 times)

scubasteve

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2018, 09:42:54 PM »
That's pretty cool Scuba, though the plywood is just anchored to EPS. Still, that looks like a very strong and much cheaper way to go, PVC foam is damned expensive. I'll try that. Should work with Tuttles as well
Hi pono bill
Yep it works the same with a turtle box the only difference is that I use a block at the front and back of the turtle, balsa at about 19mm thick straight down to the deck and resigned in between the ply, very strong.
I have made about 12 boards the only time I have had a failure is at the beginning when I just relied on the carbon to hold the boxes with no timber.
Hope this helps.
Scuba

PonoBill

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2018, 10:11:22 PM »
It does, I like your method. I'd say you're underestimating PVC foam though. Yes, it's still foam, but it's extremely strong--at least as strong as Balsa wood, and probably stronger than generally available balsa. Compressive and tensile strength of divynicell is over 100 psi. I think balsa wood ranges from 30 psi for soft to 150 psi for hard. The biggest benefit of using it is that whatever you set into it is not going to shift around in the PVC, and the much greater surface area lets you tie the structure to a lot of glass and carbon. If you tie it top and bottom it will be the last thing left when the board is a crushed up wad. Plus it's as easy to work as EPS--cuts and sands nicely.

That said, I'm looking forward to trying your approach.

Beasho--Gorilla glue is basically polyurethane foam. Yup it's strong, but it's hard to work--tears rather than sands, cuts or planes--and the density is variable. And that's one skanky piece of Divynicell you've got there. Are you suggesting pouring a big square of gorilla glue to set the mast tracks into? How would you do that? If you're saying set the mast tracks into the EPS with gorilla glue and call it good, then you're just relying on a little bit of bottom skin and the surrounding EPS to hold the tracks. I guess I don't know what you mean.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 10:24:23 PM by PonoBill »
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Beasho

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2018, 07:23:05 AM »
Beasho--Gorilla glue is basically polyurethane foam. Yup it's strong, but it's hard to work--tears rather than sands, cuts or planes--and the density is variable. And that's one skanky piece of Divynicell you've got there. Are you suggesting pouring a big square of gorilla glue to set the mast tracks into? How would you do that? If you're saying set the mast tracks into the EPS with gorilla glue and call it good, then you're just relying on a little bit of bottom skin and the surrounding EPS to hold the tracks. I guess I don't know what you mean.

Gorilla glue has proven itself superior for:

1) Gluing together 2 halves of a broken board.  I learned this from Stretch and have seen it successfully employed now many times (aka my SUP that broke in half 3 month old and then was put together and lasted 7 more years among others).  Epoxy on this joint is heavier, runs and does NOT fill voids like the Gorilla glue.

2) Any small divot in the Styrofoam.  Just lubed it up with Gorilla glue and cut off the excess with a knife.  It is like a cheap fairing.  Yes difficult to work with but you can do wonders with a sharp knife

3) Delamination of a board.  Just drill holes 1" deep  ~ 1/2" apart all through the delamination.  Fill the holes with Gorilla glue.  Cover with plastic wrap and then add 2 layers of glass above.  Poor Mans Re-Lamination.

4) Gluing back together my Foil Box that failed in the middle of the divinycell cassette.  I thought this was a sketchy repair and was waiting for it to fail again.  500+ waves later on progressively larger foils going from the KAI to the IWA to the Mailko 200 and it outlasted the board, which broke in half on its own.

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,32837.msg370284.html#msg370284

With this repair I did use the Gorilla glue to fill large voids and then faired it off with a knife. 

Essentially any where you would be comfortable with the 'beer cooler' foam as the matrix Gorilla glue should suffice and can be far superior.  It is heavier, and you have to be careful to get even density but it will work with odd shaped cavities.  Alternately use the Gorilla glue to set a larger piece of EPS, Divinycell or other foam without worrying about it being a perfect fit because the Gorilla glue will make it fit.

I have done several Fin box installations using the ProBox method.  It involves filling the cavity with about 2 oz. of Epoxy.  I never tried the Gorilla glue for that installation.  I would still laminate with Epoxy but as an internal structural matrix the sky is the limit.  You do have to worry about buoying the object up from the expansion.

Work with me, see what you can figure out.   8)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 07:28:51 AM by Beasho »

Newps

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2018, 01:58:37 PM »
Hi pono bill
Yep it works the same with a turtle box the only difference is that I use a block at the front and back of the turtle, balsa at about 19mm thick straight down to the deck and resigned in between the ply, very strong.
I have made about 12 boards the only time I have had a failure is at the beginning when I just relied on the carbon to hold the boxes with no timber.
Hope this helps.
Scuba
[/quote]

Could you post up a photo of this.  I think I understand what you are describing.
Thanks, Tare
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'4" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 112L
L41 SIMSUP S5 - 7'6" x 27 1/2" x 4 3/16" 106L
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'8" x 31"x 4 1/2" 122L - Modded w/ a King's TUT Tuttle box and using a King's foil.
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'10" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 120L

scubasteve

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 06:30:20 PM »
Hi pono bill
Yep it works the same with a turtle box the only difference is that I use a block at the front and back of the turtle, balsa at about 19mm thick straight down to the deck and resigned in between the ply, very strong.
I have made about 12 boards the only time I have had a failure is at the beginning when I just relied on the carbon to hold the boxes with no timber.
Hope this helps.
Scuba

Could you post up a photo of this.  I think I understand what you are describing.
Thanks, Tare
[/quote]

Yep I will post  a pick here.
The blocks can be pine or what ever you have lying around they will be epoxyed to the deck, plywood, foam & hull.
This pic is just a mock up and no sizes are correct.
I prefer to use fin boxes for it gives me a little adjustment and I can get the correct  angle of attack with a carbon wedge.
Cheers
Scuba 😉

Newps

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 11:02:46 AM »
Thank you for the picture and for sharing your installation method.  I am going to do this on my next foil board. 

Still undecided on whether to go fin boxes or tuttle.  The tuttle I've been running for a year has been bullet proof. 

I can adjust the AOI (Angle of Incidence, thank you Lane, Ke Nalu) with shims between the fuselage and the mast.  I can also move the entire fuselage forward (4") or backwards (10") from a starting point of (14") measured from the leading edge of the front wing to the back edge of the mast. 

With tracks I would get some some additional mast height (2 1/2 to 3") due to the tuttle being mounted on the surface and not in the board. 

Have you done any with tracks and a tuttle?  if so any feedback? 

Thank you, Tare
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'4" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 112L
L41 SIMSUP S5 - 7'6" x 27 1/2" x 4 3/16" 106L
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'8" x 31"x 4 1/2" 122L - Modded w/ a King's TUT Tuttle box and using a King's foil.
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'10" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 120L

PonoBill

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2018, 05:30:44 PM »
Hey Newps, how are you getting so much position adjustability? Most fin and mast boxes are 10" long. Fin plates generally have the fixing holes on 8" centers along the edge. That gives 1" either way from centered in the box.
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Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

sharksupper

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 07:05:08 PM »
Shoot!  Based on this video it looks like my RideEngine box is not up to the job (Slingshot = RideEngine), funny they install a FoilMount over it. 

What's it going to take to put in Chinook boxes?

Do I order two 10" Chinook mast track boxes?  Where's a good place to source large Divinycell?

jrandy

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 08:39:47 PM »
'Supper-
Where are you located? Have you ever installed a regular fin box before?
http://pushheretosavealife.com/
Be safe, have fun. -J

sharksupper

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 08:57:15 PM »
Bay Area.  I helped a friend replace a blown power box with a tuttle box on one of my boards a long time ago, but that's it.  I think I'm up for the job, just need to know what to use.  I want max strength after my recent experience (losing my foil).  If the RideEngine box looks as thin as the FoilMount I'm not going to use it, I guess I'd have to make my own cassette from Chinook boxes then.

Right now trying to find a 1/2" router bit long enough to make it through the board (about 4" deep).

Newps

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 09:20:00 PM »
Hey Newps, how are you getting so much position adjustability? Most fin and mast boxes are 10" long. Fin plates generally have the fixing holes on 8" centers along the edge. That gives 1" either way from centered in the box.

Dave CNC me a fuselage with an elongated mast attachment hole. 
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'4" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 112L
L41 SIMSUP S5 - 7'6" x 27 1/2" x 4 3/16" 106L
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'8" x 31"x 4 1/2" 122L - Modded w/ a King's TUT Tuttle box and using a King's foil.
L41 SIMSUP S4 - 7'10" x 30 1/4" x 4 1/2" 120L

Dwight (DW)

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2018, 05:18:50 AM »

Many mast plates have 8 holes, giving more adjustment range.

To my knowledge, Chinook is the only finbox using heavy glass fill during injection molding.  Itís a son of bitch to sand because of this. Super strong. Other boxes are a joke. They sand like the plastic junk they are. Worthless for foiling.

sharksupper

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2018, 09:16:31 AM »

Many mast plates have 8 holes, giving more adjustment range.

To my knowledge, Chinook is the only finbox using heavy glass fill during injection molding.  Itís a son of bitch to sand because of this. Super strong. Other boxes are a joke. They sand like the plastic junk they are. Worthless for foiling.

If the RideEngine box I get looks weak I'm going to go with the Chinook boxes.  Do I go for the 10" boxes?

sharksupper

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2018, 09:34:59 AM »
Just confirmed with RideEngine, they do not use Chinook boxes in their cassette.  Chinook is out of 10" fin boxes (hole in the center of the track for bolt entry) for a month, but they do have 10" mast tracks (hole at end of track for bolt entry) so I ordered two two of those. After seeing a video of a destroyed RideEngine box, I don't think it will handle my abuse.  Now just to find some big Divinycell...

update...

I just found out Fiberglasssupply had a pile of the 10" Chinook fin boxes, so I got a couple from them and canceled on the mast boxes from Chinook.

AircrafSpruce had 10"x12"x1" H100 Divinycell, so got 4 of those coming.  (Board is 3-3/4" thick)

Found a 5-1/2" (total length) router bit to cut out the cassette hole in the board:  https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/collections/1-2-shank-straight-bits/products/1073-01

It's going to cost a couple hundred to put this box in and do it right, but it should be the toughest option available!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 10:23:48 AM by sharksupper »

jrandy

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Re: I need to put a foil box into a board, how do I do it?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2018, 11:36:52 AM »
I would have probably sourced the same materials from the same places, or maybe used thinner D-cell layered with epoxy.
Be careful with that long router bit.
Will you be wrapping and capping the boxes with glass or carbon fiber?
http://pushheretosavealife.com/
Be safe, have fun. -J