Author Topic: Learning foil pumping  (Read 6256 times)

sharksupper

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Learning foil pumping
« on: February 21, 2018, 06:08:52 PM »
I've got good enough at foiling where I'm getting super tired paddling all the way back out after a few runs back to the beach. 

I figure it's time to learn how to pump these babies back out and save some time/effort, maybe?

My attempts up to this point were very poor, I would try to push down with my feet and it felt like I just sunk the foil down with very little lift if any at all.

However, on my second to last session I accidentally figured it out for a few pumps, but had no idea what I did differently.

Today I focused more on it and had some initial thoughts on what worked, what didn't, and general observations:

-Starting with the foil high up or with speed to get it high up seems pretty important.  I could not start pumping without some initial potential energy.  That seems obvious when I think about it, and it certainly was in practice.

-Don't push down on the legs until the foil is heading back down into the water.  I think this is what I was messing up to this point.  Seems obvious but it really wasn't to me.  It would just stall and peter out if I pushed down too early.  When I sucked my legs up and waited a little while for the foil to level off and start back down before pushing back down it seemed to work best.

-Paddling can really help keep speed up, if you can reach the water!  I think I need a longer paddle!  I was also coming very close to tipping over the foil a few times trying to reach for the water.  I have a 28"+ mast, btw.

-When you get it right it is very obvious that it's working and is pretty sustainable for short/medium periods.  I got tired after 50ft or so, but I can see how the pros can do it longer with a little more strength and dexterity... and maybe a slower higher lift foil too.

-I wonder if I'll ever be strong enough to make it worth while to learn to pump back out?  That 50ft I did today was pretty tough, I'm not sure if this is an attainable skill for me (pumping back out to the break), but I'll keep trying!

Any tips from those who have figured it out or ideas from those who are struggling like me?  :D
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 06:10:54 PM by sharksupper »

opie

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2018, 08:59:03 AM »
Which foil are you using?
I am on the Takuma.  I haven't seen anyone pump the Takuma back out but I feel like it might be possible.  One weird thing I noticed was when I cut my bent mast down to 18 inches I had more success pumping.  I am still only going 15 feet or so with five pumps headed back out but it felt like the geometry was better with the shorter mast. I did not play with it much because I was saving my energy in order to make the most of what was a perfect foiling day.
I am definitely going to try your tip about waiting to push the foil down next time out.

sharksupper

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 09:30:00 AM »
I have the Lift 170 (sq-in) surf foil.  This is a very thin foil, maybe 1/4-3/8" thick only.  It is very fast and efficient once up to speed, but I would imagine it takes more speed to get it going and doesn't lift as well at slower speeds compared to some of the thicker foils out there.  I have not seen/tried any other foils though, so I really don't know, just guessing based on what I see in pictures and videos (typical armchair surfer! ;) )  Intuitively, I would think a slower high lift foil would be better for pumping since pumping is at slower speeds, but who knows?

One of the things that looked most appealing about foiling was the ability to pump back out to the break, as I would imagine a lot of people feel when seeing videos of guys doing that, but I do also notice that those guys are mostly pros or groms, so I just don't know what's possible for the average joe like myself.  There are some older guys doing it with straps, which seems like it might help some, but they are also pro or near pro status!  Most of the guys pumping back out also seem to be on tiny prone boards, so not sure how much of a factor using a SUP vs prone is to being able to pump back out.  Zane sure makes it look easy on an SUP!   :)

Eventually I'd like to pick up a larger GoFoil like a Maliko to see if maybe I can do it on one of those if I cannot on my current foil.  I am hopeful though, as I've had some limited success the last two sessions, but I'm still just pumping in the direction of the waves, I have not been able to turn back out and try pumping yet. 

I wonder if there is less effort required to pump back out vs paddling back out?  Perhaps I'm just dreaming and it's actually more effort to pump back out!?!

I'm curious to hear about what people learn as they figure this out as I'm actively trying to figure it out myself!

sharksupper

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2018, 06:19:51 PM »
Well it finally happened.  After 6 months and a lot of effort, today I can claim to have legitimately pumped all the way back out several hundred feet back to where I started!  A month ago or so I actually had pumped back out, but it was only about a hundred feet, and I thought maybe I just got lucky with the rebound.  Today it was full on, no helpers, no short distance.  Let me tell you though, I was about to have a heart attack after putting out that much effort!  It helped to have other foilers around who were pumping back out.  Seeing others do it is sure inspiring!.. and maybe raising jealousy a bit for motivation  ;D

I was on the 6'5 JL Flying V, Maliko 200, and no foot straps.  I'm 180lbs riding weight.  Waves were mostly knee to waist high and a few bigger ones.

I'm here to tell you it can be done by mere mortals, you don't have to be Kai or Zane!  The short light board and big foil with long mast are the key success factors here for me, add a little technique, and a crap ton of effort and there you have it.  I did have to paddle while flying to do this, no surprise there.  I also found that if I could get the wing high up close to the surface and then keep it riding high as my pumps topped out it was much easier to sustain.  When the foil would get deep it was much harder to pump and get a lot out of it for my effort.... and required much more paddling power to keep going.  Keep trying and it will come!!!

Califoilia

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 06:52:54 PM »
OUTSTANDING Shark...that's awesome...CONGRATULATIONS!!!

I'm so far away from that due to that "heart attack" feeling a couple times after riding in...I've not really considered even trying it yet.

But you're inspiring me now, and will have to put that on my foiling bucket list.  :)
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

surfercook

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 07:34:08 PM »
There's hope! But I can't imagine pumping yet, although I have tried a tiny bit...I would love to see a video of you doing that! sounds like you have it wired already.
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PonoBill

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 07:39:22 PM »
Congratulations. I'm getting nowhere fast with my pumping effort, but I'm trying to pump up onto wind swells from being on the water, not flying and maintaining. My already successfully downwinding friends here keep inviting me to come with them, but this kind of effort and failure doesn't mix with an audience--I feel like a fat chicken trying to take off with stubby wings. Probably look like that too.

I'm mostly using a Maliko 280 but I occasionally switch back to the 200 since I've had some minor success with it. The 280 feels sluggish but settles slowly, so if I get off the water at all I can stay up a little longer. As you say, a lot of the secret seems to be delaying the downward push and emphasizing the lift, but I'm wearing myself out before I really get the timing down.

Recently my knee has been acting up and aching, so I think I have to lay off a while until I get my semi annual shot, and then a few weeks after that to let the inflammation settle down. By then I'll probably be in Maui and surfing. Which sounds so very good right now.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

sharksupper

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 09:09:17 PM »
Sano, Baby steps led up to this point, just trying to pump a little more each time and finally it all added up.  I was super surprised when it happened, I didn't expect it.

SurferCook, I have a GoPro but not sure what view would work best?  On the paddle wouldn't work, but I could do a chest mount though.  I'll give it a shot when I'm back from the UK in a couple of weeks.

Bill, it certainly is easier to drop into the last wave and then have lots of speed coming out back to start off, no question about that.  I haven't done any downwinding, but I can imagine it's a lot tougher with such short low energy wind swells.  I'd imagine you'd have to be pumping a lot!

I learned today from watching others that when people are putting effort into something it really stokes others to give it a try, or harder try.  We had quite a session out there and the mood was very up beat, people even mentioned it to me afterward, so it wasn't just me.  I'm teaching a few friends how to foil so we can get a local crew going to stoke each other on and progress faster!

frenchfoiler

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 11:52:57 PM »
Remember that pumping is not pushing down on your legs, actually you need to relieve the weight so the foil goes up.
That is the reason why it is so easy with a shortboard (super small, light responsive). A light board helps for sure and I also like the front strap as it helps relieving myself (not sure how to say that in english, sorry but I think you get it, right ??).

Here is an explanation form my friend Eric Terrien :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t5ejJ8nb44

Of course timing is super important and of course a bigger wing is gonna help.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 11:55:36 PM by frenchfoiler »

APPST_Paddle

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2021, 08:14:37 AM »
Sharksupper - I know this is an old thread, but I'm exactly at the point where I took a bit of advice from this post by unweighting and staying high on the foil on the way back out. I have the exact same setup as you - JL 6'5 Flying-V, GL Maliko 200, 180 lbs, same waves everything. No issues getting extended rides as long as there's a wave to link to, and/or at spots where it's a long line linking several breaks (inlet break) How is this going and how does working the paddle in help with extending the pump back out?

We have a few spots where you can set a line and just glide on the foil, and a few inlet spots where it's just continual breaks, but I would love to be able to pump back out on beachbreaks.

I'm trying to get this down versus switching to the prone (I really still like being on the SUP).
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PonoBill

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2021, 10:04:01 AM »
My pumping--usually with a wingding--has progressed a bit in two years. I'm not pumping back out or anything insane like that, but when the wind dies I can pump a few hundred yards to the beach, assuming I'm already up on the foil and moving well. In true adherence to scientific methods, my weak pumping and a van full of wings have given me quite a bit of insight into what makes a foil setup easy to pump--at the skinny margin of capability there's a lot of measurement sensitivity. I'm certain Kane deWolfe can pump half a mile with a two-by-four bolted to his fuselage. I need everything working perfectly to make a hundred yards.

For easy pumping, we probably can't beat long, high aspect wings, with a little camber, and thin cross-section. Couple that to a short-ish fuselage and a minimal stabilizer shimmed to about 2 degrees relative to the wing and even a faker like me can pump it. The Axis 1300 is a very weird wing, and it has a lot of unfortunate shenanigans, but for pumping along with minimal effort it's tough to beat. You just can't fall below its minimum speed or it unexpectedly drops you like a bad habit.

The 1150 is a more reliable pumping wing, with few oddities. If you lose speed there is no sudden drop, just a disappointed slide down to the surface.

Shorter masts are easier to pump up than long ones, though if I start pumping up as high as I dare on my 96CM mast and try to keep it high, then as long as I maintain speed I can coast for a hundred feet or so before touching down. Several times I've had to bail out or turn sharply as I approach the beach on the 1300 once I realize my coasting trajectory will take me well past the high tide line, and on one occasion with some helpful swell probably all the way to the parking lot.

My repaired 76CM mast seems fine, I rode yesterday, and at the end of two sessions I was pleased with how easily I could pump to the beach
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

jondrums

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2021, 06:51:40 PM »
I guess I can't quite explain why the weight and balance of the board make such a huge difference, but it does.  I can pump my 13# foilSUP noticeably better than my 14# board and lights out better than my 17# board.  And I can pump my prone so much further with so much less effort.  This is all with the same foil setup down below.

Pono called me out in the past when I claimed that we are completely unweighting the board during the pump, but since then I've paid a lot more attention.  I agree with him that we are only partially unweighting and the board is so much lighter than my body that it shouldn't matter so much.  But I am sure the phenomenon is there, just don't yet understand why.

PonoBill

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2021, 07:17:54 PM »
I beg forgiveness for that Jondrums. I take a certain pride in being wrong most of the time and I knocked that one out of the park. My featherweight flying dutchman board pumps so much better than my heavier boards that there is no opportunity for comparison.

Why I wouldn't expect that escapes me. I've spent a considerable part of my life making things light. This is my idea of a shelf bracket.
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surfcowboy

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2021, 08:02:07 AM »
Weight and length matter so much. Balance too, Iím sure. Iím figuring that itís related but with a board over 6í you simply canít get the foil far enough forward to make it all work.

I switched to a board thatís 5í2Ē from a 6í4Ē wing board and that foot of length changed everything. Could it be that just the foil position is what did it?

One thing I saw recently when attempting to prone surf. I had my mast positioned completely incorrectly based on my old early attempts. Now that Iíve foiled (SUP and Wing) for a year, I can completely rethink what is ďtoo far forward.)

My buddy makes an adapter plate that lets you move your mast about 2Ē further forward than your box allows. Heís a foil SUPíer. He can also pump like a prone guy (almost.) Iíll bet thatís no coincidence. Iíll bet SUP foils are by design way harder to get balanced for pumping.

Iíd love to see what the effects of moving a mast drastically up would be on a SUP. But if not, try to lose a foot of of whatever you ride. All of a sudden you will be better at pumping. Physics, itís hard to fight, especially if we donít understand it!

We are early days here, even now.

PonoBill

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Re: Learning foil pumping
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2021, 09:28:52 AM »
Sheesh. I'm even wrong about Kane's name. It's Kane de Wilde. I got him confused with friends in Hood River--the talented de Wolfe family and luckily not the Wylde family. I had an enjoyable conversation with Kane at the Harbor yesterday, talking about foils, aeronautics, my goofy Towbot project, and other stuff. He's very interesting to talk with, lots of insight, an avid experimenter personality, and a crazy amount of experience for a young guy.

Talking with him may have proved useful for the Towbot. I've been thinking about a fairly simple way to make the Towbot self-right--a big problem with catamarans. I planned on an asymmetric weighting of the hulls, which would lead to a tendency to roll. Of course, that works both ways to a degree, though the battery weight will be low in the hull. After talking, I thought about it some more on the drive home. I can use the motor mounted on a mast as a counterweight, and angle it to help right. That could either be uncontrolled--just flopping to an angle that helps right the Bot when it's upside down, or servo controlled.

I might also aim for the bot to be able to foil out of the water. I hadn't planned to, I intended to use an undersize foil to lighten the hulls in the water and reduce drag, but it might be advantageous to have the ability to go to fully foiling. Worth considering.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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