Author Topic: The history of SUP according to the ICF  (Read 10931 times)

jrandy

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 04:55:39 AM »
Maybe the ICF needs an endorsement from this guy:


http://www.legendarysurfers.com/2011/10/canoe-drummond.html


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surf4food

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2018, 05:53:07 AM »
I get the impression here a lot of people don't what the image of SUP to look something like this:
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:58:17 AM by surf4food »

Area 10

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2018, 11:07:51 AM »
Curiously, the ICF rules for "SUP Canoe Racing" state that:

"During the whole race paddlers are not allowed to paddle towards or use the waves caused by a board i.e. paddlers must keep an appropriate distance from any board. Should a competitor paddle directly within the area (about 15 m distance) of a board wave for more than 30 seconds they will be disqualified. Any other instrument or influence that could be construed as a means of assistance is likewise forbidden".

How does drafting fit into this? There's a separate section on drafting that states:

"5.3 Drafting is defined as paddling in the wave of another participant, either behind or alongside the backwash of a paddler, closer than 2 board lengths for longer than 10 seconds and is only allowed between two participants in the same competition class. This means drafting is not allowed between women and men and vice versa. The race director has the right to either disqualify any participants infringing this rule or to impose a penalty".

I'm obviously misunderstanding what the former section is referring to. What does "paddlers are not allowed to paddle towards or use the waves caused by a board i.e. paddlers must keep an appropriate distance from any board" mean?

supthecreek

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2018, 07:15:48 PM »
Area 10 said
"If you were to describe the history of SUP in one sentence, would your sentence look like theirs?"

No.

I don't care what they say about the "History" of SUP
This did NOT come from ancient whoevers, poling a reed raft across the marshlands.... it came from one place... and one place only:

Laird Hamilton surfing at Malibu in 2002

Everything else is just happenstance similarities, given more importance than it's worth, to somehow link SUP to ancient roots. It's all noise.
Laird was being Laird.... using a paddle on a tandem surfboard when he was bored.... it clicked: "why not ride waves on it?"

MY sentence:
SUP is SUP because Laird Hamilton came up with a novel approach to surfing on a tandem surfboard, while using a paddle.

SUP was all about surf.... the rest evolved from that.
The ICF would have you believe that SUP surfing is almost an afterthought : "many also take on ocean surf"

We are not, and never have been a canoe paddlesport.... the ICF has no concept of what this sport is.
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Dusk Patrol

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2018, 07:21:07 PM »
I get the impression here a lot of people don't what the image of SUP to look something like this:

Not to complicate things, but the craft that the German is paddling is really more SUP than canoe.  Just sayin'...
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Dusk Patrol

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2018, 07:23:21 PM »
I get the impression here a lot of people don't what the image of SUP to look something like this:

Not to complicate things, but the craft that the German is paddling is really more SUP than canoe.  Just sayin'...

..and the other pic of "Canoe Drummond"?!? Look at him... What planet is he from?
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ukgm

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2018, 02:19:55 AM »

It will be interesting to see what the format of the events at the OCF’s new “World SUP Championship” in Portugal later this year will look like. They will presumably be a preview of what the ICF has in mind for SUP in the Olympics.

I imagine it will follow their rulebook with a 5km distance race and a 400m 'sprint' (that really isn't a sprint).

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2018, 02:22:05 AM »
If you were to describe the history of SUP in one sentence, would your sentence look like theirs?

I'm wondering if you ever engaged your buddy Steve West on the matter?

I remember he had a lot to say about that few years back and went through
length to prove a point without scurrying around the surf aspect.

Would be very interesting to know where he stands on that these days.

There is a feisty thread on the UK paddleboarding site that both Steve and I engaged with that gave everyone's latest views. It was heated !

ukgm

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2018, 02:23:52 AM »

We are not, and never have been a canoe paddlesport.... the ICF has no concept of what this sport is.

That's an opinion, not fact. However, even if this is true, let both organisations run their disciplines and see where the footfall goes.

burchas

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2018, 03:14:37 AM »
If you were to describe the history of SUP in one sentence, would your sentence look like theirs?

I'm wondering if you ever engaged your buddy Steve West on the matter?

I remember he had a lot to say about that few years back and went through
length to prove a point without scurrying around the surf aspect.

Would be very interesting to know where he stands on that these days.

There is a feisty thread on the UK paddleboarding site that both Steve and I engaged with that gave everyone's latest views. It was heated !

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surf4food

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2018, 05:32:01 AM »
Area 10 said
"If you were to describe the history of SUP in one sentence, would your sentence look like theirs?"

No.

I don't care what they say about the "History" of SUP
This did NOT come from ancient whoevers, poling a reed raft across the marshlands.... it came from one place... and one place only:

Laird Hamilton surfing at Malibu in 2002

Everything else is just happenstance similarities, given more importance than it's worth, to somehow link SUP to ancient roots. It's all noise.
Laird was being Laird.... using a paddle on a tandem surfboard when he was bored.... it clicked: "why not ride waves on it?"

MY sentence:
SUP is SUP because Laird Hamilton came up with a novel approach to surfing on a tandem surfboard, while using a paddle.

SUP was all about surf.... the rest evolved from that.
The ICF would have you believe that SUP surfing is almost an afterthought : "many also take on ocean surf"

We are not, and never have been a canoe paddlesport.... the ICF has no concept of what this sport is.

Well I would go back a bit further to the mid 90's when Laird and Dave were on their photo shoot in Ma'alaea.  That's when they both first tinkered with it.  But yeah I agree with your overall point. 
As for the ICF, don't think they have no concept of it so much as they don't really care deep down.  With SUP they see $$$.  SUP has expanded far beyond the surf to the point where most people doing it are not surfing at all.  While a board is not a canoe, SUP IS very much a paddle sport, albeit rooted in surfing.

Area 10

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2018, 05:50:29 AM »
If you were to describe the history of SUP in one sentence, would your sentence look like theirs?

I'm wondering if you ever engaged your buddy Steve West on the matter?

I remember he had a lot to say about that few years back and went through
length to prove a point without scurrying around the surf aspect.

Would be very interesting to know where he stands on that these days.

There is a feisty thread on the UK paddleboarding site that both Steve and I engaged with that gave everyone's latest views. It was heated !

Link?
I wouldn’t go there if I were you burchas. It won’t enrich your life...

Let me summarise it:

Surf SUPers and people who have SUPed from the start overwhelmingly see themselves as part of an ocean boardsports crew and do NOT identify with canoeists, who they see as boring old fuddy-duddys presiding over obscure Olympic events that no-one cares about.

Newer people to SUP who are mainly racers and inland waters beginners don’t know the real modern history of SUP because they have most often seen it in the context of environments where canoeing also happens, and wouldn’t know Laird Hamilton or Dave Kalama if they crashed their canoe into them. So they are more open to the idea of SUP being awfully like canoeing. They don’t really identify with any group much.

There are a few canoeists who also do SUP. But we don’t talk about them because they see SUP mostly just as a way to make money, and that we are their poor relations.

Then there are the “training robots” (as ukgm describes himself) who love the idea of races on rowing lakes, conducted over set distances, with everything regulated, right down to the colour of your underwear. This fits perfectly with their need for certainty, regularity, repetition and measurement. These people tend to be attracted to the idea of SUP in the Olympics, and SUP events mimicking rowing events in format (possibly with different weight classes etc) and so rather like the idea of the ICF running things.

Then there are some oddball historians who want you to believe that SUP was actually invented by a tribe in outer woolongolia or wherever, or is a branch of Coracle paddling, Outrigger Canoeing, Dragon Boating, Lilo fondling or whatever (pick your choice of craft and/or people) because they once saw an old faded picture of someone doing some paddling standing up or using a single blade paddle, and want to appear more erudite than everyone else.

And then there are quite a few people with conflicts of interest, who don’t care about who runs SUP, but want to make sure that they’ve got their noses fully in the trough, whoever runs the show.

Of course, it is also possible in some cases to belong to more than one of these categories simultaneously!

Each of these people are expressing views along pretty predictable lines. And so we are getting the same phenomenon that we get with eg. Trump or Brexit, and that social media is so good at doing: increasing division and polarisation of views.

So, that’s progress for you! I suspect that SUP will split into two main camps, inland and ocean, no matter who ends up running the Olympic show. And many of the ocean early adopters (who basically started the SUP “craze”) will take up foiling, and since that looks nothing like canoeing, will manage to avoid the grasping clutches of the canoeists. Until of course the canoeists all start using foils too, and then say that they invented foiling.

 

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2018, 07:13:47 AM »

I wouldn’t go there if I were you burchas. It won’t enrich your life...

Let me summarise it:

1) Surf SUPers and people who have SUPed from the start overwhelmingly see themselves as part of an ocean boardsports crew and do NOT identify with canoeists, who they see as boring old fuddy-duddys presiding over obscure Olympic events that no-one cares about.

2) Newer people to SUP who are mainly racers and inland waters beginners don’t know the real modern history of SUP because they have most often seen it in the context of environments where canoeing also happens, and wouldn’t know Laird Hamilton or Dave Kalama if they crashed their canoe into them. So they are more open to the idea of SUP being awfully like canoeing. They don’t really identify with any group much.

3) There are a few canoeists who also do SUP. But we don’t talk about them because they see SUP mostly just as a way to make money, and that we are their poor relations.

4) Then there are the “training robots” (as ukgm describes himself) who love the idea of races on rowing lakes, conducted over set distances, with everything regulated, right down to the colour of your underwear. This fits perfectly with their need for certainty, regularity, repetition and measurement. These people tend to be attracted to the idea of SUP in the Olympics, and SUP events mimicking rowing events in format (possibly with different weight classes etc)

5) .....and so rather like the idea of the ICF running things.

6) .....because they once saw an old faded picture of someone doing some paddling standing up or using a single blade paddle, and want to appear more erudite than everyone else.

7) And then there are quite a few people with conflicts of interest, who don’t care about who runs SUP, but want to make sure that they’ve got their noses fully in the trough, whoever runs the show.


1) They may well see it that way but I would argue they are becoming (or already are) a minority group within the sport. The surf crowd do not represent the sport now.

2) That's entirely plausible (and I would agree with you).

3) Really ? Whilst some argued about brands being ocean orientated they chose to forget that fin companies have come in from other sports entirely and Quickblade (who are the most popular paddle brand in the elite racing fraternity) is led by ex c1 Olympic Canoeists. The point is though, it doesn't matter where it was but rather where it's going.

4) That's not true. I've openly stated that if you want a sport to have a natural development led by its participants, you don't take it to the olympics. It's a bad idea. Fast tracking sports there kills their diversity and development (see triathlon, open water swimming and snowboarding for examples).

5) Nope, not true. I've openly stated that I don't back either side and don't think that the ICF are any more or less qualfied than the ISA. My view is let them both do it, they'll create their own formats and natural selection will win out. If the surf guys are scared that a rowing lake 5km is going to kill off their arm of the competitive sport, they didn't deserve to survive in the first place (and vice versa).

6) I think the history of SUP is going to be clouded with clear bias of people wanting to be associated with ocean surf regardless of who paddled what first. It makes for a more romantic picture than me in lycra with a power meter.

7) That's an absolute given. I've engaged with a few governing bodies in my time and the only reason that SUP is being fought over in the first place is about control, power but ultimately money and visibility. That applies to the ICF and the ISA.

Area 10

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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2018, 09:15:10 AM »
"1) They may well see it that way but I would argue they are becoming (or already are) a minority group within the sport. The surf crowd do not represent the sport now."

This is just seeing the situation from the perspective of an inland (mainly, and now) racer who lives in the UK. The distribution of activities is determined to a very great extent by geography. By any criteria you wish to consider, Australia are one of the world's foremost SUP (and SUP racing) nation. Yet SUP for them is overwhelmingly a coastal activity.

Similarly, the Hawaiian islands can be considered (by any reasonable person who is interested in being reasonable) the birthplace of SUP. And again, there SUP is a coastal activity, with surfing and downwinding the overwhelming competitive and recreational choices.

Traditionally the most significant and prestigious races in our sport have arguably been the BOP/PPG and the M2O. Both ocean races. Not always the biggest in terms of participation (and in the case of the M2O it is pretty obvious why that will never be a race for the masses), but certainly the ones that the hyper-elite all want to win.

And then there have been the World Championships, where countries compete against each other. They include SUP as well as beach racing and mixed-condition distance races (as well as sprints). How can you possibly say that surf is a minority part of that?

I think that you are just reflecting what you see and do, rather than what everyone sees and does. I was out in the surf yesterday and there were SUPs everywhere, despite it being the UK winter.  Only a fraction of those people will compete in races, so you aren't meeting them. But they are out there paddling in the sea and surfing and downwinding etc nevertheless. And it is even more the case in many other locations round the world where SUP is most prevalent. There are even several inland locations like Hood River where the SUP activities are much more like typical ocean ones than doing laps round a flat lake in the UK, and where the SUPers belong to a community of watersports people that often do other sports that are often strongly associated with the ocean (and were invented by ocean people as well).

So, what you say might be true of the UK, but it is certainly not true of many of the most significant SUP locations.

And this is not about surfing. I live near the beach but I distance paddle in the sea (especially downwinding) more often than I surf. This is true for many people. The contrast is between ocean paddlers and inland waters ones, not between surfers and distance paddlers. Very few inland (distance) paddlers are surfers. But very many SUP surfers are also distance paddlers.


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Re: The history of SUP according to the ICF
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2018, 09:52:37 AM »
1) This is just seeing the situation from the perspective of an inland (mainly, and now) racer who lives in the UK. The distribution of activities is determined to a very great extent by geography. By any criteria you wish to consider, Australia are one of the world's foremost SUP (and SUP racing) nation. Yet SUP for them is overwhelmingly a coastal activity.

2) Similarly, the Hawaiian islands can be considered (by any reasonable person who is interested in being reasonable) the birthplace of SUP. And again, there SUP is a coastal activity, with surfing and downwinding the overwhelming competitive and recreational choices.

3) Traditionally the most significant and prestigious races in our sport have arguably been the BOP/PPG and the M2O. Both ocean races. Not always the biggest in terms of participation (and in the case of the M2O it is pretty obvious why that will never be a race for the masses), but certainly the ones that the hyper-elite all want to win.

4) And then there have been the World Championships, where countries compete against each other. They include SUP as well as beach racing and mixed-condition distance races (as well as sprints). How can you possibly say that surf is a minority part of that?

5) I think that you are just reflecting what you see and do, rather than what everyone sees and does. I was out in the surf yesterday and there were SUPs everywhere, despite it being the UK winter.  Only a fraction of those people will compete in races, so you aren't meeting them.

You picked only one of my responses but you've made some good points so lets go with that:

1) You're right. it is dictated by geography and the reason many ocean sports don't get widespread popularity is more people live inland. Australia isn't a great example as most of its population is unusually based by the coast and not inland (as well as having a low population overall). The reality is when you look at the most popular competitive events (and you can source this on SUPracer.com as you know), it's inland, not open water.

2) I can't say with any authority at all about Hawaii's place in SUP's history but I am open minded to alternatives or to reviewing any evidence as it is presented. Granted, the ICF's approach is, well, bloody awful. I'm not romantic about SUP's origins (and maybe that is part of the problem) so I am open minded.

3) They were but whether they remain that way is questionable. There are plenty of other events now that pull in far greater numbers. The question is whether SUP should be perceived by its most prestigious events or by its participation footfall. You may well be right but I don't have a problem with the ICF throwing their own racing interpretation out there and seeing if it sticks.

4) The worlds I would say are not a good example. The reason is that the ISA have only been running theirs for 7 years and the athlete formats and number are prescribed and capped. Its hardly a long time to draw much of a conclusion and the ICF have only decided to pipe up now. It will be interesting to see what paddlers and nations decide to go to the ICF champs. I suspect it will be like dragonboating whereby the nations in attendance will be heavily polarised and potentially not do both.

5) No, agreed. I'm only interested/focusing on the racing angle in this discussion (and you have to ask whether the ICF/ISA thing is even relevant to those who don't compete). However, bearing in mind again more people in the UK live inland then on the shoreline, whilst the sport may have first got traction there, its participation is likely (but I haven't got the data) to be inland. As far as surf based competition goes in the UK, the numbers of participants are pretty low. The highest attended open water race last year was the baySUP technical race in Bournemouth and that barely cracked the top 10 of most popular events attended here. Whether that is the same elsewhere, I can't say. Could we see a diversity between US and European based competition, I think yes.