Author Topic: Recommended FLAT WATER board  (Read 46383 times)

ukgm

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2018, 10:57:19 AM »
I had the chance to get of a Nelo relatively affordably mid last year. I decided not to as I felt the board might be beyond me and if that was the case, selling it would be a nightmare. I played safe (and not for the first time). Had I been able to actually get on a demo on it I might have felt differently. I still hope to at some point.
Probably the right decision, and your size.

Why don't you just buy a SIC RS? You know it's the board for you :)

And btw why aren't you competing at some sport where your size is a positive, rather than doing all these sports where the elite guys are all 150lbs and even Dave Kalama would get his ass kicked by a 15 year-old from Hawaii these days? :)

I don’t know. I’ve always gone with what I’ve enjoyed and then made the best of it. I guess I should have been a rower really but I literally missed the boat.

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2018, 12:21:31 PM »
Hate to break it to you mate, but you missed the boat for SUP too :)

There are teenage girls now who’d kick your ass in most races!

But there is dignity and purpose in trying to keep up with the youngsters I guess. The UK old farts brigade are lucky that there aren’t more youngsters who SUP race. Strange that they don’t get too excited about the prospect of flogging themselves to death round a dirty lake for an hour in subzero temperatures and howling winds and rain on a miserable dark UK day. My teenage kids took one look at SUP racing and couldn’t quite see the glamour and glory in it. So back to football they went...

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2018, 05:35:02 PM »
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2018, 09:31:44 PM »
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Absolutely true. But much as I love the fact that the sport is so appealing to the older athlete -and indeed has turned some older couch potatoes into athletes, the absence of teenagers at the local level has arguably allowed some middle-aged racers to become legends in their own minds. When I first tandem SUPed with one of my sons when he was 10 I was actually shocked at how much absolute power he was able to generate at the blade, never mind the power-to-weight. And this was before technique training. Two years later the situation was even more extraordinary. If he had decided to race, within a couple of weeks he’d have been kicking my ass, even though I’ve been working on my technique and fitness for 11 years now.

This skewed demographic (overwhelming predominance of older athletes, except at the very elite end) really sets SUP apart from many other sports. It’s largely a safe haven for the older athlete in many spots. Far away from those irksome kids who remind us of how much we have lost. But I assume that as SUP inevitably starts to become taught formally more widely, like eg. swimming or anything else, then slowly the old farts will overwhelmed by the youngsters, and the days of the middle-aged hero will be over. It’s kinda sad I guess, but might be sign of progress, and as long as the juniors being faster than the Masters racers doesn’t put the Masters/Veterans off too much, then hopefully it might even widen participation.

 

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2018, 11:31:11 PM »
Perhaps we can even the field a bit - at our old age.

Put kids on a budget and have them use 12' or 14' board, or even an economical inflatable board.
Put the wiser men and women on ultimate flat water ULs, and that should even things out a little. :)

Maybe restrictions are good and a new rule may read as follows:
UL (with or without rudders) - available on all races as soon as you reach 50.
or...
We make ULs - specifically for old farts.

In all seriousness, attendance may be sparked, and we may actually have more people in races.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2018, 11:33:57 PM »
Hate to break it to you mate, but you missed the boat for SUP too :)

There are teenage girls now who’d kick your ass in most races!

But there is dignity and purpose in trying to keep up with the youngsters I guess. The UK old farts brigade are lucky that there aren’t more youngsters who SUP race. Strange that they don’t get too excited about the prospect of flogging themselves to death round a dirty lake for an hour in subzero temperatures and howling winds and rain on a miserable dark UK day. My teenage kids took one look at SUP racing and couldn’t quite see the glamour and glory in it. So back to football they went...

Agreed. Something I've chatted about with several of our best (but aging) domestic sup competitors is why so many of us are still doing relatively well and why several of the under 25's should be doing better. The reason I think is that sup is still too led by fashion or is a lifestyle sport than one of absolute performance. There are a couple of under 25's I could take and make a lot better with some structure and knowledge but the price would be that it would sanitise the sport. This happened to cross country mountain biking in the mid 90's and it didn't end well.

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2018, 12:40:14 AM »
Well it’s partly that the long format of the races doesn’t appeal to youngsters. Ifvraces were no more than 15 mins long you’d probably get more youngsters - and they’d do relatively better. Lots of older paddlers are happy to slog it out for hours on end, and their endurance remains quite respectable. But youngsters get bored and it’s not necessarily desirable to be pushing them hard for very long periods even if you can get them to do it. So the whole racing scene has been created to play to the strengths of the oldsters, and the effect, deliberate or not, has been to keep the kids out.

Places where the race formats are more exciting (eg. beach races or downwinding), and the weather is warmer, have generally had more success in attracting youngsters into the sport.

ukgm

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2018, 01:02:51 AM »
Well it’s partly that the long format of the races doesn’t appeal to youngsters. Ifvraces were no more than 15 mins long you’d probably get more youngsters - and they’d do relatively better. Lots of older paddlers are happy to slog it out for hours on end, and their endurance remains quite respectable. But youngsters get bored and it’s not necessarily desirable to be pushing them hard for very long periods even if you can get them to do it. So the whole racing scene has been created to play to the strengths of the oldsters, and the effect, deliberate or not, has been to keep the kids out.


You may well be right. It was certainly the way in track cycling, mountainbiking and snowboarding with formats like a modernised omnium, 4-cross and boardercross respectively. I also think though that older competitors in many sports do have a tendency to gravitate to longer distances as their experience increases, their speed fades or their disposable time increases to train for them.

warmuth

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2018, 07:22:35 AM »
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Absolutely true. But much as I love the fact that the sport is so appealing to the older athlete -and indeed has turned some older couch potatoes into athletes, the absence of teenagers at the local level has arguably allowed some middle-aged racers to become legends in their own minds. When I first tandem SUPed with one of my sons when he was 10 I was actually shocked at how much absolute power he was able to generate at the blade, never mind the power-to-weight. And this was before technique training. Two years later the situation was even more extraordinary. If he had decided to race, within a couple of weeks he’d have been kicking my ass, even though I’ve been working on my technique and fitness for 11 years now.

This skewed demographic (overwhelming predominance of older athletes, except at the very elite end) really sets SUP apart from many other sports. It’s largely a safe haven for the older athlete in many spots. Far away from those irksome kids who remind us of how much we have lost. But I assume that as SUP inevitably starts to become taught formally more widely, like eg. swimming or anything else, then slowly the old farts will overwhelmed by the youngsters, and the days of the middle-aged hero will be over. It’s kinda sad I guess, but might be sign of progress, and as long as the juniors being faster than the Masters racers doesn’t put the Masters/Veterans off too much, then hopefully it might even widen participation.

  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2018, 08:10:13 AM »
  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.

^Well said.

in many cases those participants don't even know nor care about who won. They only find out about it when they go to
look up the official result online. Happened to me more than once.
in progress...

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2018, 10:10:36 AM »
  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.
:)
Well in the UK I shouldn’t think anyone under the age of 30 has won more than about 10% of races in any one year (this might be an exaggeration but if so I’m sure that ukgm will provide the correct statistic). And the average age of racers at any event is probably around 35, and maybe higher. So the advent of the kids, when and if it happens, will be felt very keenly.

When SUP racing started in the UK the British champions were almost exclusively mostly surfers and guys from other Watersports. At some point the scene was invaded by the triathletes. They trained much harder and were fitter so they started winning.  Almost immediately, most of the the previous cohort of racers stopped racing. So I’m wondering if the same thing will happen when the kids arrive: the oldsters, unable to cope with not winning any more, will exit stage left. Many of the best racers race because they like winning, rather than because they like paddling, particularly. They’ll do anything where they stand a better chance of winning. The skewed age demographic of SUP has encouraged this in some places more than others, I suspect. I’m not sure we have *any* young (under 25) female racers who have graced the podium in recent years, have we ukgm? You’d almost think you have to be over 40 to race as a woman in the UK :)

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2018, 10:24:23 AM »
Many of the best racers race because they like winning, rather than because they like paddling, particularly. They’ll do anything where they stand a better chance of winning

Well, if those types quit paddling, not a big lose for the sport IMO. I wish they would do anything to better their chances of winning, we would probably see some innovation
in board design as they are likely more economically sound but as it stands they'll probably move on to the next target.
in progress...

ukgm

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2018, 05:27:13 AM »
Well in the UK I shouldn’t think anyone under the age of 30 has won more than about 10% of races in any one year (this might be an exaggeration but if so I’m sure that ukgm will provide the correct statistic). And the average age of racers at any event is probably around 35, and maybe higher. So the advent of the kids, when and if it happens, will be felt very keenly.

When SUP racing started in the UK the British champions were almost exclusively mostly surfers and guys from other Watersports. At some point the scene was invaded by the triathletes. They trained much harder and were fitter so they started winning.  Almost immediately, most of the the previous cohort of racers stopped racing. So I’m wondering if the same thing will happen when the kids arrive: the oldsters, unable to cope with not winning any more, will exit stage left. Many of the best racers race because they like winning, rather than because they like paddling, particularly. They’ll do anything where they stand a better chance of winning. The skewed age demographic of SUP has encouraged this in some places more than others, I suspect. I’m not sure we have *any* young (under 25) female racers who have graced the podium in recent years, have we ukgm? You’d almost think you have to be over 40 to race as a woman in the UK :)
There was a survey that went out in the UK not too long back that (if I recall correctly) suggested most racers only do 4-5 events a year on average. With that in mind, you don't always see the same people doing well but you do see the same faces pop up at the few 'big' UK events we have (Dart, Thames, etc). Whilst we have had a series, it's lost prestige and interest. This isn't helped by many of the big UK SUP names of the last 2-3 years I know locally moving on to OC1 paddling now.

I agree with you on the triathlete analogy though. A lot of the guys that train in my club may well be watersports fanatics now but the majority of those that race have some form of reputable endurance background and didn't just migrate in from surfing or other wind sports. There are some exceptions to this but many of the UK's first wave that did come from that background have moved on. That said, I still get a few open mouths when I tell people that my 2 hour paddles aren't really long enough (but that they are the minimum I would personally be comfortable with to go racing with as a foundation).

There are some very good female racers in the UK but of the top 4 or 5 that jump to mind, none of them are south of 35 (and most, not south of 40). The numbers are low generally though.

However, one thing this sport does have in its favour is that due to low impact and a focus on technique, you can hold your standing later in life than you could in sports like running. It's one of the reason I've stuck with both cycling and SUP as I have seen plenty of guys not show any slowing down in those until past 50 years of age. If I were still doing triathlons, it would already have started for me at 40. The main reason for my recent weight loss experiment and change in training methods (think 'Rocky does SUP') was due to the likes of Larry Cain pushing nearly 60 and UK stalwart Mark Slater at nigh on 50 (and who crushed me in a local SUP time trial I organised a couple of months ago). It ain't over and I hope that we develop our own national championships in time that allows for age grouping to give us all something to keep going for. I dropped Team Starboards Ben Pye at the Dart last year halfway into the race who was only 16 I think but I know I'm only 36-48 months away from him spanking me and everyone else for six once he develops some endurance as he physically matures.

ukgm

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2018, 05:32:27 AM »
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Absolutely true. But much as I love the fact that the sport is so appealing to the older athlete -and indeed has turned some older couch potatoes into athletes, the absence of teenagers at the local level has arguably allowed some middle-aged racers to become legends in their own minds. When I first tandem SUPed with one of my sons when he was 10 I was actually shocked at how much absolute power he was able to generate at the blade, never mind the power-to-weight. And this was before technique training. Two years later the situation was even more extraordinary. If he had decided to race, within a couple of weeks he’d have been kicking my ass, even though I’ve been working on my technique and fitness for 11 years now.

This skewed demographic (overwhelming predominance of older athletes, except at the very elite end) really sets SUP apart from many other sports. It’s largely a safe haven for the older athlete in many spots. Far away from those irksome kids who remind us of how much we have lost. But I assume that as SUP inevitably starts to become taught formally more widely, like eg. swimming or anything else, then slowly the old farts will overwhelmed by the youngsters, and the days of the middle-aged hero will be over. It’s kinda sad I guess, but might be sign of progress, and as long as the juniors being faster than the Masters racers doesn’t put the Masters/Veterans off too much, then hopefully it might even widen participation.

  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.

Recreational and clrusier classes also allow for this (thats why cycle sportifs, gran fondo's and 'park runs' are seeing huge numbers that the races don't see. It allows you to race covertly but opt out with no fallout if you don't.

The biggest races in the UK last year ? The SUPbikerun triathlon (300+) and the national SUP club champs (~270). Both of those were informal and very laid back. In fact the most presitgious race we have (arguably the 'Head of the Dart' see's ~250 racers but only ~80 of those are in the elite race. The rest are in the leisure paddle.

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2018, 10:31:52 AM »
ukgm - well that shows that most people have got their heads screwed on then! And there's a clear steer for event organisers. btw did you not include SUP Armada in that?

On the age thing, it's actually quite curious watching children paddle, and see how much more paddle power than you expect they seem to be able to generate, once they know which end of the paddle is which.  Presumably it's to do with using a full range of motion, managing to get more muscles involved. But I can't quite see how they do it, frankly. If we knew, then I wonder whether adult paddlers could improve by following their example.

 


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