Author Topic: Recommended FLAT WATER board  (Read 15002 times)

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2018, 06:49:14 AM »
Grey Paddleboards and other custom boards may very well be an answer to my problem.

Now you're going into interesting territory... It looks like you are open some more radical designs:

Take a look at http://www.savageriver.com/sups/rocket I've heard good things about this design.

With specs like yours it looks like you could achieve a super stiff lightweight board. I've seen one
that went narrower than the suggested design and added the Larry Allison 4 fin setup to compensate
for the rounded bottom+Narrow outline combo, which make sense in more than one way.

Another idea I was looking to incorporate (for my own dream flat water board) is the Nelo inverted bow
design: http://www.nelo.eu/en/kayaks/details/viper_46/ which seem to make a lot of sense for flat water.

Look up Patrick Broemmel, he is a master shaper and a damn good paddlers who's actively racing (and winning)
He really understand board designs from a competitor point of view and helped me in the past. You can have
someone like him honing your shape on a 3d file and have it built in closer to home so you can keep an eye one
the process and make sure there are no misunderstandings in the execution.
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Eagle

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2018, 11:00:28 AM »
Seems if Robert @ 195 can race on a 21 -> you @ 130 can drop down to a 20.  Will just depend on the design and what sacrifices you want in stability vs glide.  If true you are not concerned about stability go round bottom and pin to pin with zero rocker in a custom build.

The 2017 Sprint 21.5 is a svelte 230L -> so if you tried the 23 that is a much different animal at a tubby 274L.  Personally would not get the 23 as the 230L feels like the perfect volume for me.  From my perspective the triple concave design underside is the right move as it provides a lot of stability even with the chamfered edges.  But if you do not want or need that -> def just go rounded for less drag and better efficiency.
 
Sounds like you really need to just go full-on custom.  So choose one of the designers noted and get exactly what you want.  A production board will not meet your defined specs because the market for your requirements does not generate enough sales to justify.  Most buyers want some stability -> so the brands ditched the rounded bottom approach long ago to broaden their market appeal.
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2Rivers

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2018, 01:12:35 PM »
Part of the problem you face is that most of the leading SUP shapers are ocean people not inland waters people. There aren’t that many well-known truly flat water brands.
So true! If you're thinking of going custom, check out Flatwater Paddle Co. Mike shaped the Coreban and Lakeshore race boards and has a good reputation for making fast boards. I'm not sure if he's still shaping though.
http://www.flatwaterpaddleco.com

Another option would be a custom BlkBox Sidewinder.
https://www.blkboxsurf.com/sup/custom/sidewinder

404, Bark, Infinity, King's, and Riviera are some other good options for custom shapes.
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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2018, 11:27:32 PM »
Grey Paddleboards and other custom boards may very well be an answer to my problem.

Now you're going into interesting territory... It looks like you are open some more radical designs:

Take a look at http://www.savageriver.com/sups/rocket I've heard good things about this design.

With specs like yours it looks like you could achieve a super stiff lightweight board. I've seen one
that went narrower than the suggested design and added the Larry Allison 4 fin setup to compensate
for the rounded bottom+Narrow outline combo, which make sense in more than one way.

Another idea I was looking to incorporate (for my own dream flat water board) is the Nelo inverted bow
design: http://www.nelo.eu/en/kayaks/details/viper_46/ which seem to make a lot of sense for flat water.

Look up Patrick Broemmel, he is a master shaper and a damn good paddlers who's actively racing (and winning)
He really understand board designs from a competitor point of view and helped me in the past. You can have
someone like him honing your shape on a 3d file and have it built in closer to home so you can keep an eye one
the process and make sure there are no misunderstandings in the execution.


That's scary!
I have to admit, looking at that black and blue board is like looking at what I was thinking.
It's beautiful - and strangely enough: it just looks RIGHT.

@ Eagle
Yes, alone on dead flat water, I could easily paddle a 19 to 20" standard board (flat bottom, larger tail, etc...). I am however seeking a little bit of stability. 23" on a round hull is gonna glide like crazy nice. 23" on a round hull should have the stability of a 19-20" "traditional" board (flat bottom).

Width of a board is so relative.
It could feel like you lost an inch you shape a board with a super accentuated needed nose.
You could also feel like you lost yet another inch (or two) when creating a board with a rounded hull.
When a board has a needle tail, you could feel like you just lost another inch.
Combining the 3 above criteria (a board with needle nose, rounded hull, pin tail) and you could see yourself having to go to a 24" wide board.

CUSTOM MODIFS
If I do go custom, I'll use something else from the surfski theory, one that almost no one is talking about.
Drains (scuppers) on surfskis have been proven to slow us down.
Paddling with a drain in the close position is always preferred, even in open water.
We had to find an easy way to open and close it with our feet.
Surfski equipped with the DeBrito drain have proven super efficient and easy to operate.
Paddling in the Dead of Winter on such a board will be welcomed (no more wet feet).
** I would want the exact same thing on my custom board **

This would allow me to have incredible added stability, by lowering my center of gravity well below the water level - like on a surfski.

The hull wouldn't be all round
There would be flat "accents" on the hull - also similar to proven surfski - that provide insane added stability.

@YUGI
The NSP does indeed look that way.
I should have tried an NSP a long LONG time ago.
Shame on me.

MOLDED BOARD
Everything else being equal, I'd go with a hollow board any day.
Boards made from a Mold require a plug - a worthy prototype.
There's is no way I will be paying (and waiting) for a custom board, and then paying (and WAITING) for the "custom" Mold to be built, and then waiting and paying for that board to come out of the newly created Mold.

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2018, 08:08:31 AM »
Drains (scuppers) on surfskis have been proven to slow us down.
Paddling with a drain in the close position is always preferred, even in open water.
We had to find an easy way to open and close it with our feet.
Surfski equipped with the DeBrito drain have proven super efficient and easy to operate.

Do you know what is the reason for the slow-down?
Some dugout have simply holes (SB Ace) other have Venturi covers (Sunova/One)
Is the slow-down due to the interaction of the water with the open hole or with teh cover or both can provide a slow down of equal force and are in fact equivalent?
I have been considering plugging the front holes in my Ace-GT that seem to bring more water in than out except when DW.
Ace-GT 17'4" x 27" 313L
Maliko 14' x 26" 264L
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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2018, 10:19:45 AM »
I am however seeking a little bit of stability. 23" on a round hull is gonna glide like crazy nice. 23" on a round hull should have the stability of a 19-20" "traditional" board (flat bottom).....

Combining the 3 above criteria (a board with needle nose, rounded hull, pin tail) and you could see yourself having to go to a 24" wide board.....

** I would want the exact same thing on my custom board **

This would allow me to have incredible added stability, by lowering my center of gravity well below the water level - like on a surfski.

The hull wouldn't be all round
There would be flat "accents" on the hull - also similar to proven surfski - that provide insane added stability.....

MOLDED BOARD
There's is no way I will be paying (and waiting) for a custom board, and then paying (and WAITING) for the "custom" Mold to be built, and then waiting and paying for that board to come out of the newly created Mold.

Ok sounds pretty straightforward then. Looks like you want a sharp pin to pin with a flat accent rounded bottom @24 using a DeBrito drain.

Since it looks like there are no production boards that fit your specific requirements.  Just get a custom made up with zero compromises.  Robert would actually know the 11 City race conditions better firsthand than any other designer. So he seems a viable logical choice.  If in your position -> would get talking to Robert or someone similar who knows that race to design the exact board I want and need.  ;)
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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2018, 10:48:54 AM »
My personal choice would be that 2017 Sprint 21.5 I tested -> as my AS23 feels slow and tubby in comparison.  I personally would not go the rounded bottom approach even with a flat accent.  That is the Think design Daryl incorporated into his beginner surfski model.  Ok for that but not so much for SUP.  His hollow SUP has a rounded bottom but is quite wide with a fat tail.  He could drop it down as noted last year -> but he told me there is no market appeal for that.

Actually am a bit surprised you think that 21.5 is too draggy.  If you actually tried it -> yes it does have "some" drag but not a lot vs any other board.  I am perfectly ok with that stability compromise for less width drag.  That is a proven race winning design.

Seemed a lot of racers used the 21.5 Sprint in that race and did ok.  At least would expect to stay dry on that vs a sharp tippy pin to pin.  But keep us posted what you decide in the end.  Not many here seem to like the fun challenge of narrow boards.  Times a ticking.  ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2018, 04:15:23 PM »
That's scary!
I have to admit, looking at that black and blue board is like looking at what I was thinking.
It's beautiful - and strangely enough: it just looks RIGHT.

It does looks right! The icing on the cake with this design - you don't have to worry about drain holes 8)

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2018, 10:51:19 PM »
@LUC
Drain holes add turbulence to water. Some designs are more prone to affecting speed in a negative way. As a general rule, when you have huge holes (like the ones on the Ace) you will be slowed down on dead-flat water - mostly because of their shear size, left open at all times. Making them smaller (like on the Sprint 17'6 x 23") and you get far less drag. However, making them smaller isn't necessary the answer, because it would defeat the purpose on the Ace - a board which is primarily designed for open water. You'll want that board to drain FAST.

You could cover the holes, and make a slit in the center. That would give you a little less drag, but still allow a little bit of water to escape. This may only be practical for flat or semi flat water though.

Sadly, most manufacturers don't want to mess with added components: Manual drain, rudder, pedal, front leash plug, etc... at least in my opinion.

@EAGLE
Yeah, I still think that the Sprint 14x21.5 is a great contender, especially as a stock board. When I tried it, I immediately compared it with my second favorite board - the Sprint 14x23". In comparaison, the 14x21.5 seemed to glide much better, cut the water like few other boards, and still quite stable. The rear wave wasn't bad, but still quite present with my weight. 

The 14x21.5, while stellar, was still a long LONG ways away from the glide achieved with my 17'6 x 23" - a board so quiet, you know it's fast. Of course, it's comparing apples and oranges, but we both know that for pure flat water, WE CAN IMPROVE the current level of drag - or at least reduce it by a huge margin.

IDEAS?
Take the hull of the Nelo 520 surfski. It's a rounded hull with a very distinct FLAT area for added stability. That would be my wife's surfski. Secondary stability is just amazing for a surfski. Beginners can get on it and pretty much immediately paddle away on dead flat water. Now, cut out the seat on it and place your feet on this flat area. The added stability make it quite do-able to STAND UP PADDLE.

Incidentally, the Nelo 520 surfski glides beautifully on flat water - compared to a SUP. Incidentally, that particular surfski is built for Open Water. Go find the error?!?!

For reference, the Nelo 520 is 51.5cm (20.28") at its widest point, by 520cm (17') for its length. The glide is so amazing (again, compared to any SUP that I know) that you could probably add 2 more inches in width for some added stability - and still have great glide characteristics. Heck, my K2 surfski (with 56cm) has better glide than any SUP board I have ever been on - and its stability while standing is downright amazing - with plenty to spare.

All of this tells me we are indeed making great advancements in the SUP World, but we also have a long ways to go in terms of SHAPE, CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUES, and ACCESSORIES. I mean, the DeBrito drain was only adopted by many just couple of years ago - and that's insane if you think about how long it took us to figure that one out.

Back to boards - you guys have brought me plenty of new ideas on boards - especially board builders. I have also really opened my eyes and researched a bunch.

I have to balance Shape (custom-made boards) with Construction Type (stock Hollow Boards) - and pounder some more. Tick-Tack, the clock is definitely ticking - but that's a whole lot of money.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:43:57 PM by photofr »
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2018, 02:23:10 AM »
Well, if you are going to go to that level of trouble for a board, why not get a custom from Joe Bark himself?

THIS! That blue and black Savage River reminds me of really old Bark boards built for Jimmy Terrell. He knows a thing or two
about flat water.  ::)

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2018, 02:48:31 AM »
My personal choice would be that 2017 Sprint 21.5 I tested -> as my AS23 feels slow and tubby in comparison.  I personally would not go the rounded bottom approach even with a flat accent.  That is the Think design Daryl incorporated into his beginner surfski model.  Ok for that but not so much for SUP.  His hollow SUP has a rounded bottom but is quite wide with a fat tail.  He could drop it down as noted last year -> but he told me there is no market appeal for that.

Actually am a bit surprised you think that 21.5 is too draggy.  If you actually tried it -> yes it does have "some" drag but not a lot vs any other board.  I am perfectly ok with that stability compromise for less width drag.  That is a proven race winning design.

Seemed a lot of racers used the 21.5 Sprint in that race and did ok.  At least would expect to stay dry on that vs a sharp tippy pin to pin.  But keep us posted what you decide in the end.  Not many here seem to like the fun challenge of narrow boards.  Times a ticking.  ;)

I know of team riders struggling on that board so I think your definition of it being stable is extremely relative !!

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2018, 02:51:58 AM »
The new Whiplash dugout might be an option there are a few distributors in Europe I believe.

https://www.facebook.com/daveboehneofficial/posts/842264392612407

Wasn't the Mistral Vortex also a good contender in flat water races like 11 City and so on.


The Vortex was heavily copied from the older starboard sprint as a starting point. It's fast but using older shaping theory. The standard one was low on  volume (a problem they later rectified without losing face by releasing the 'XL' version).

The new Fanatic Strike looks interesting though.

I've also seen the light signature Nelo boards. They look great (but is too much for me to personally handle in a large race).

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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2018, 05:29:45 AM »
For reference, the Nelo 520 is 51.5cm (20.28") at its widest point, by 520cm (17') for its length. The glide is so amazing (again, compared to any SUP that I know) that you could probably add 2 more inches in width for some added stability - and still have great glide characteristics. Heck, my K2 surfski (with 56cm) has better glide than any SUP board I have ever been on - and its stability while standing is downright amazing - with plenty to spare.

The only issue referencing the Nelo 520 is your 14' constraint. As I understand it, one of key elements for achieving this kind of efficiency is the beam to length ratio of 10:1.
These measurements are not random 20.28":204" (17'). To achieve this ratio on a 14' sup you'll have to be at 16.8" width so you might want to give this consideration in your working theory.
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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2018, 05:32:47 AM »
Well, if you are going to go to that level of trouble for a board, why not get a custom from Joe Bark himself?

THIS! That blue and black Savage River reminds me of really old Bark boards built for Jimmy Terrell. He knows a thing or two
about flat water.  ::)

Yeah check out the vid:




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Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2018, 10:31:12 AM »
The 14x21.5, while stellar, was still a long LONG ways away from the glide achieved with my 17'6 x 23" - a board so quiet, you know it's fast. Of course, it's comparing apples and oranges, but we both know that for pure flat water, WE CAN IMPROVE the current level of drag - or at least reduce it by a huge margin.

IDEAS?

I have to balance Shape (custom-made boards) with Construction Type (stock Hollow Boards) - and pounder some more. Tick-Tack, the clock is definitely ticking - but that's a whole lot of money.

This idea was actually built years ago.  This board is 11 at waterline and 16 on the deck.  Seems if you want pure FW -> Bark can talk to you about a sleek low profile FW design.  Just have him scale down a SUP to the length you want.  Pin to pin mega low drag with a flat section and drain.  Below the vid is a pic of the "QB Canoe" that Jimmy hoped SUP would eventually not turn into.

Fast is FUN!   8)
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