Author Topic: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?  (Read 10179 times)

Board Stiff

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2018, 08:09:42 AM »
I'm still confused about the evolution of SIC's planing board lineup. Is the V1 gone (or only available in 17' length)? Is the V2 now the nuking downwinder board, and the Bayonet the sub-20 kt downwind board? When the Bullet V2 was first released, I though it was the sub-20 kt downwinder, with the V1 being the nuking board.  ???

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2018, 09:10:44 AM »
Yes, I think the 14ft V1 Bullet is gone, which is a great shame because in the conditions where I am the V1 is more versatile than the V2.

I think that basically now theyíve got the F series for beginner DWers or big boys, and the V2 for intermediates, and so the Bayonet is for the advanced crew. Itís tippier than the V2 was.

So in other words I think this is more about skill than conditions, although judging by the videos we see here, most downwinding worldwide is going on in pretty small conditions, completely unlike Maliko. And I assume that they assume that if you are tackling serious conditions like Maliko on a big day, then youíll be the kind of person who wants an UL board anyway.

What Iíd like them to concentrate on is developing a board that is as good upwind as downwind. Iím sure many of us often go out for UW/DW sessions when we are in our own and have no other option, and itís pretty brutal pushing many of these boards upwind in 20 knots and knee-high+ bumps. The flat rocker race boards boof  and slap like crazy, and the rockered DW boards tend to pitch and slap, with every little ripple pushing against the rocker in the nose. So Iím not sure what the solution is but Iíd like someone to find it! Maybe a planing hull but somehow with a reverse bow nose? Any ideas?

Eagle

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2018, 09:25:29 AM »
This is what SIC has up on their website at the moment.  But actual stock may vary.

Bayonet - A sleek, narrow and super-fast downwind board that worked amazing in sub-twenty knot conditions and increased top end speed in all conditions.

Bullet V2 - The outlineís widest point has been shifted slightly forward and the rocker flattened, which provides the rider with better stability when powering up in lower wind ranges and smaller chop.

Bullet - With slightly more rocker and volume than the Bullet 14V2, this board is more stable and forgiving than its flatter rockered counterpart, the V2.

F14 - The rocker profile is de- rived from the new Bullet 14.0 V2, which makes the board quick to plane and prolongs the glide. The F 14.0 was designed for the larger bodied paddler who is looking for more stability.

The SIC planing hulls are quite diversified and have gained a huge following up in HS.  However the V2 is the preferred choice by far.  For me it is a blast for big wind and small swells -> but for big steep swells the JL M14 is the ticket.  Personally 27-28 is perfect for true DW shuttle runs in a lot of wind.  For less breeze many AW boards will do ok.  I learned DW basics on my Dom and Touring pin for instance.

Found it interesting that they say M2O etc averages only 12-15 kts of wind.  So can see the push for narrower and faster flatter rocker lines for more speed.  A V2 or M14 is quite sticky and sluggish in only 15 kts of breeze -> so makes a ton of sense to come up with the Bayonet.  At one point a 24 V2 would have been ok for me kinda like the 24 Maliko.  But have adapted on the AS23 for light winds like that and quick local upwind DW runs.

https://www.storesicmaui.com/boards/planing-hull/bayonet/17-1-bayonet.html
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:44:45 AM by Eagle »
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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2018, 10:15:05 AM »
"The Bayonet is a close replica of a board that was designed by Mark Raaphorst/SIC. The rider, who happens to be sponsored by another brand, have ridden the Bayonet development boards to numerous victories in the prestigious M2O and other downwind races in recent years."

Connor likes the 24 wide.  ;)
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digger71

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Eagle

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2018, 11:03:30 AM »
Yeah Connor and the lads at the pointy end are water board balance and distance freaks.  Have hard enough of a time just paddling a board facing backwards.  On flat!  Let alone in bumps and breeze.  But these guys did it for fun many years ago when they were first starting out.  Amazing and much respect with kudos. These guys are truly select.

But would expect that 24 to be a spear for those crossings as the 17.4 Bullet 26.6 is very sluggish when the wind peters off.  Def for big DW madness -> SIC and JL have it covered in my books.  True planing boards that are a ton of fun.
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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2018, 12:32:54 PM »
The SIC planing hulls are quite diversified and have gained a huge following up in HS.  However the V2 is the preferred choice by far.  For me it is a blast for big wind and small swells -> but for big steep swells the JL M14 is the ticket.  Personally 27-28 is perfect for true DW shuttle runs in a lot of wind.  For less breeze many AW boards will do ok.  I learned DW basics on my Dom and Touring pin for instance.

The V2 is really popular among folks I paddle with here in Maine. It's the best quiver of 1 board I've tried out for coastal conditions around here.

I was thinking of getting rid of a JL M-12 and replacing it with a V2 (14'). I originally went with the JL thinking it would fit better in the small inland bumps I used to downwind when I lived in New Hampshire, and also be better for surfing and rough condition paddling than a V2. It worked out well on the first two points, but since moving to Maine, I use it alot less for that stuff. And I rarely get out in serious downwind conditions above 15-20 mph. I think for general rough water paddling, a 14' V2 would be at least as stable, and more efficient.

 This thread got me thinking, though, that maybe the V2 had been evolving in the V1 direction, with the Bayonet filling the niche that the V2 used to target. From A10's perspective, it sounds like that's not exactly it...

I think that basically now theyíve got the F series for beginner DWers or big boys, and the V2 for intermediates, and so the Bayonet is for the advanced crew. Itís tippier than the V2 was.

So in other words I think this is more about skill than conditions, although judging by the videos we see here, most downwinding worldwide is going on in pretty small conditions, completely unlike Maliko. And I assume that they assume that if you are tackling serious conditions like Maliko on a big day, then youíll be the kind of person who wants an UL board anyway.

What Iíd like them to concentrate on is developing a board that is as good upwind as downwind. Iím sure many of us often go out for UW/DW sessions when we are in our own and have no other option, and itís pretty brutal pushing many of these boards upwind in 20 knots and knee-high+ bumps. The flat rocker race boards boof  and slap like crazy, and the rockered DW boards tend to pitch and slap, with every little ripple pushing against the rocker in the nose. So Iím not sure what the solution is but Iíd like someone to find it! Maybe a planing hull but somehow with a reverse bow nose? Any ideas?

Interesting. I think I have the skills to handle a 26" Bayonet in most conditions I'd encounter, but I'm looking for something a little more downwindy/surfy and generally easier/more stable than my JL Sidewinder (25"). The ability to handle heavier conditions than I'm capable of on the Sidewinder is key, as I want as versatile a quiver as possible. Whatever I get should be something I can use when I just want to relax and not worry so much about balance in moderate conditions, as well as loan to a novice paddler on flat water.

Upwind performance is also a huge factor, as most of my downwinding (mostly downbreezing, really), involves paddling upwind and then turning around. The Sidewinder just plows into the oncoming chop and really feels sluggish in those conditions. My M-12'6 probably isn't any faster upwind, but it at least feels less herky-jerky, as the rockered nose rides over a lot of the stuff that the Sidewinder's nose plows through.

The super-easy bump catching in light wind is what really appealed to me about the Bayonet reviews, as well as the hope that it might be a better upwind ride than the V2. But if it's too close to my Sidewinder in terms of skill/balance required for anything but the mildest conditions, than I may still be better off complementing the Sidewinder with a more forgiving V2.


Eagle

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2018, 03:52:37 PM »
"And I rarely get out in serious downwind conditions above 15-20 mph. I think for general rough water paddling, a 14' V2 would be at least as stable, and more efficient.

This thread got me thinking, though, that maybe the V2 had been evolving in the V1 direction, with the Bayonet filling the niche that the V2 used to target."

The 14V2 might be as stable as the 12'6 JL -> but the M14 is def more stable than the V2 with its hard edges all round and much deeper rocker line with a fat round tail.  Personally for really steep swells it is a blast to ride and surf whereas the V2 is much more of a handful.  But for flatter swells and upwind DW the V2 is a better choice by far.  Both have completely different power zones.  Overall tho would pick the V2 as a better all round board.  I paddled my V2 12+ miles last year up down and across wind and chop in the ocean and it handled it like a champ.  Def a versatile ocean board that really likes small bumps.  The Bayonet should just be a little looser and faster in those conditions is all.  Just a diff niche from their ad copy blurb.
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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2018, 06:20:33 PM »
Sadly, the perfect upwind/downwind board has yet to be invented IMO.

Iíd be potentially interested in a Bayonet but suspect that Iíd find it too floaty in my conditions, which tend to be very confused and rippy.

I was wondering recently about a board that would be widest in the rear half and maybe even the tail, and had a reverse bow, but still had quite a bit of rocker, with a planing bottom as much as possible, and carried forward. The nose would be narrower at the front than the tail would suggest. It would look very odd indeed, but maybe if executed well might be the perfect upwind/downwind board for smallish conditions. The old Naish 17 had a similar idea as well in terms of a kind of teardrop outline, and was pretty good upwind for a such big board because the nose was was so narrow. It just needed the rocker and rails tweaking a bit.

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2018, 08:00:54 PM »
Not really sold on the reverse bow for DW.  Our SB Touring has one with a little upturned surf nose.  Works perfectly fine in little bumps -> but in steep and deep it pearls and auto twists if you are a touch too far forward. 

Personally like a full-on planing surf nose for that sort of nasty condition.  We get that entering the river up in Squamish as the depth shallows up.  Sometimes big standing wave action when the current is maxed.  But can say there is no "perfect" one solution board for everything at this point.  So have given up on that quest long ago -> and just use specialty boards well suited to the conditions at hand.  But as always horses for courses.

Out of our 5 boards the 14V2 is the most versatile AW DW option.  Kinda sluggish on flat -> but not bad at all for our slop and chop conditions we often get.
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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2018, 12:23:50 AM »
OF COURSE I donít want a reverse bow for downwinding! The reverse bow is for UPWINDING. If you read what I said, I was talking about the perfect upwind/DW Board. I twice as long each UW/DW session paddling UW than DW. And most DW board are pretty awful for going upwind (actually, pretty much any current design is bad for going upwind). A reverse bow when going UW tends to submerge of course, and flush the deck, but it doesnít pitch as much as a typical planing nose, and it is pitching where you lose so much speed.

Maybe I should have kept it simpler. So ok: what is the best design for UPWIND in 20 knots and knee-high (or over) bumps?

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2018, 12:45:36 AM »
Maybe I should have kept it simpler. So ok: what is the best design for UPWIND in 20 knots and knee-high (or over) bumps?

The answer to that is Standamaran. It's an upwind machine and will go through anything.
It can downwind really good as well if you know how to ride it ( which I have yet to master).

So what's the catch you ask? You can't surf it. But if you're cool with long ass glides it will
not fail you, not even on a downbreezer.
- Ocean Ripple 16x25
- SIC Standamaran (S-16) - https://goo.gl/7myGAo
- SIC FX 12.6 2X - https://goo.gl/GOkSHT
- Red 2017 Elite 14x25 - https://goo.gl/Su8lJk
- ZRE Lightning 75
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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2018, 02:38:12 AM »
I would love to try a Standamaran. But I also need something that can surf, because coming into the beach on a big DWer usually requires surfing in through shorebreak, and I wouldnít want to end up with a bunch of matchwood :) I also enjoy the footwork of DWing.

Eagle

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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2018, 07:01:55 AM »
I gave up trying to find the "perfect" UW/DW board since conditions vary so much.  Instead basically use the AS23 for smaller conditions -> and Bullet 14V2 for bigger conditions.  For really windy nasty conditions often go with M14.  This past year have used the AS predominantly tho.

So really depends is the point.  Every board has compromises.  Plus for this -> plus for that.  Dependent on the skill power balance stamina etc of the rider.

Out of my quiver for instance the low slung AS23 and V2 and M14 do an admirable job UW -> whereas the Dom and Touring pin get pushed around a lot more.  But as noted the V2 would be my choice if had to keep only one board out of any board we have.  Or have ever tested.  It is that good for my use and purposes.

Edit:  But then used both the Dom and Touring a ton for UW/DW before getting those other boards.  So guess it comes down to the board you have is the "perfect" board as many peeps have only one board.

Also was thinking "why" the V2 is so good for me.  It comes down to its inherent stability first and speed second.  After 12 miles in slop and chop -> that board gave me a ton of confidence UW DW CW and did not tire me out like other tippier boards would have.  That for me is key in our coldish ocean conditions.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 07:40:29 AM by Eagle »
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Re: SIC Bayonet shape vs. Bullets?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2018, 07:58:49 AM »
I had a Bullet V1 and V2. I sold the V2. Nice board, but it just didnít work in some of the conditions here. I got a Bark Vapor and it did all that the V2 did, but several things better. The Bullet V1 is however a classic, and Iíve still got it. In the conditions round here, once it gets about 20 knots (which is very often) having lots of rocker makes life much easier and more fun. My custom UL has more rocker than pretty much any production board youíve ever seen, and is very low volume. Itís so good for these conditions that itís almost like an unfair advantage.

I bought the Bullet V2 because Iíd hoped it was better upwind than the V1. It was. But only just. Pretty much every board Iíve ever tried stinks upwind once bumps get over 1ft. Although as I say, the old Naish 17 was better than it had a right to be, so thereís a lesson there.