Author Topic: Time for Solid State?  (Read 622 times)

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Time for Solid State?
« on: November 14, 2017, 05:30:38 AM »
https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/14/fisker-has-filed-patents-for-solid-state-batteries/



The promise of 2.5 times energy density and 1 minute charge times is certainly alluring.  Will this be next? 

Not to say that current cars, bikes, gadgets, etc are not amazingly capable as is, but we are still within the realm of range anxiety, charge time frustration, and weight complaint.  But, if the promises are true, we should blow through all of those in the next few years.


PonoBill

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Re: Time for Solid State?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 10:39:58 AM »
There's as much effort being put into charging speed as capacity. The more a battery is like a capacitor, the faster it can charge. Moving ions around takes time, moving electrons happens a lot faster. But once an approach is settled on the manufacturing challenges have to be met. Supercapacitors require that the plates be separated by a dielectric insulator that leaves the plates extremely close together without shorting at the working voltage. And the plates need to pack a huge effective surface area into a small space. The challenges of making them are similar to the challenges of getting a battery to work. The big difference is ions vs electrons. The mechanics are about the same.

As it is, some of the batteries I play around with can discharge 100 amps at 3.2v for a few minutes from a battery the size of a shotgun shell. That's nowhere near the leading edge. Charging for those batteries is about 20 times slower. They remain a bit spooky, but the chemistries for most are getting pretty good. Still, if you drive by my shop you'll see Nero, the Airstream, parked in the middle of the lot. It's stuffed full of experiments that I don't trust to behave themselves while I'm gone. It would be sad to lose Nero, but much worse to lose the shop.

The biggest challenge in using these things is adjusting your thinking to accommodate their strange characteristics. I'm building a spot welder for welding battery tabs that uses a single 5amp 12 V lipo that's the size of two sticks of butter. That battery can discharge at 60C, which means 300 amps at 12V. Alternatively, I can power it with two golf cart batteries that weigh 60 pounds each. The golf cart batteries might be preferable because if the welder shorts out it will just toast some wiring. If it shorts with the LiPo the battery might go into thermal runaway and catch fire. The small size makes it easy to toss into the middle of the yard. I'm debating the best course, but I think this welder will be an outdoor toy.

Elon Musk and JB Straubel probably know as much about supercapacitors and batteries as anyone. I expect that one of the characteristics of the gigafactory is the ability to switch chemistry and form factors. It's going to be an interesting next twenty years.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 10:55:42 AM by PonoBill »
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eastbound

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Re: Time for Solid State?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 02:57:14 PM »
any opinion (for an admitted know-little on the subject) on membrane-flow battery tech?

i have an ancient investment (repapered, reupped a few times--written off as a loss, in my mind at least) in a zinc-flow battery tech company--now "vanadium flow"

seems membrane flow has not gotten traction and may be abandoned as solid state/other techs develop further??

regardless, i aint reupping again--credible vc just invested/diluted and seems possible they will jettison membrane flow and try to do something with the load-balance software and the marketing shell (that didnt market so well!)

see vionx for current incarnation

Starboard Blue Carbon AirBorn 8'8"
Sunova Creek 8'10"
Fanatic AllWave LTD 8'11"
Starboard Widepoint HRS 9'5"
Walden Magic 10'10"
SIC Bullet 14 V2
KeNalu Koniihi 84,xTuf,ergo adjustable
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT
ZRE ZX4 85

PonoBill

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Re: Time for Solid State?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 07:13:14 PM »
Probably a dead end for anything except special applications.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

eastbound

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Re: Time for Solid State?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2017, 08:31:17 AM »
yep and rarely do great ideas, even,  (and flow batts are nowhere near great idea status) that get repapered and reupped, ultimately bear fruit
Starboard Blue Carbon AirBorn 8'8"
Sunova Creek 8'10"
Fanatic AllWave LTD 8'11"
Starboard Widepoint HRS 9'5"
Walden Magic 10'10"
SIC Bullet 14 V2
KeNalu Koniihi 84,xTuf,ergo adjustable
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT
ZRE ZX4 85