Author Topic: Level 4 Autonomy  (Read 25957 times)

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Level 4 Autonomy
« on: November 08, 2017, 03:27:26 AM »

Badger

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 04:55:58 AM »
Will those cars be able to avoid wildlife? Will we be seeing more dead and injured animals now?
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Night Wing

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 05:11:28 AM »
My views on self driving cars hasn't changed. They're not for me.

And to play devil's advocate.

What happens to the occupant in one of those small SDC's in the video when they come to an intersection where the SDC has got the green light and an 18 wheeler traveling at 45 mph (or more) runs the red light on his side and t-bones the SDC? I'm going to guess the occupant in the SDC is going to be severely injured or worse, "pushing up daises" if you get my drift.
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Badger

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 05:51:21 AM »
The video shows no one in the drivers seat. How could it possibly avoid an accident that requires a split second reaction and decision making?

What if the car is driving down the road and there is a tree down or any kind of obstruction in the road? How will it know whether to go around/over it or turn around and go back? What if the road is flooded or washed out?  Do you just hit the proceed anyway button if you think it's safe to do so?

What if you are in a dangerous situation and you need to get out of the area quickly? Will the car be able to break the rules of the road and get you to safety in time?

How would the car handle a situation where it had to pass a group of cyclists?

Until these and many other problems are solved (and they won't be), autonomous cars will never be practical.

Only a fool would buy one. People would soon forget how to drive. If the law were to require that someone be in the drivers seat at all times, why not just do the driving and stay alert and awake? Are we that lazy?

Boats have had a form of autonomy for decades and it has caused a lot of accidents. It actually started with wind vane self steering in the 1960's. Later came electronic auto pilots. Ever since GPS was invented, people don't even bother to learn navigation anymore and it's too easy to just call someone to come save you.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:36:29 AM by Badger »
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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 06:46:45 AM »
These vehicles are already on the road.  Level 4 Autonomy does require that the car still be operable by a human but the driver seat does not need to be occupied.  The driver's seat will not go away until Level 5.   At level 4 the car will pull over and stop if it requires human assistance. The vehicles are already far superior to humans in terms of split second reaction.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/7/16615290/waymo-self-driving-safety-driver-chandler-autonomous
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 07:01:10 AM by Admin »

Team Santa Cruz

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 08:03:14 AM »
Ca does not allow Autonomous Vehicles on the Freeway as of yet.
they are still subject to surface streets @ 35mph...  Nevada on the other hand
has passed a law allowing them to use the freeways for testing.  with that
Tesla, Ford, Google are all moving headquarters there, and I'm sure Apple will too.
Tesla had plans already with the battery factory.  Ca with its taxes and regs is squeezing
these companies out and Nevada has Huge Space and is opening there arms to them.
as for animals and humans.  People have a sorry record for safe driving as it is.  and
when you ride with a friend or on a bus you are trusting someone else to do the driving.
I have be in and around the Google campus for last 7yrs and have seen the cars from the start.
I can tell you that it seems like your driving with your grandmother,  slow and easy.   which
is a good thing around that area.  biikes, people on cell phones, buses, fast cars,  what better
area to be testing than that place. 
I like driving and the ideal I get to make decisions and can react to changing conditions. but
being able to load up the car and relax for 3hrs to the mts or a long road trip would be nice.
think of the market for elderly people who can't drive and have these cars to get them around
and what about the people who drive horribly or are from another country and don't know there
way around or the rules of the road. 
just like battery cars these vehicles are here to stay and people are going to buy them.
you watch,  taxi and freight and rental car companies will eat this technology up.
this is a list of companies that have applied for permits for autonomous car testing
and the list is by the date they applied for the permit, that's a lots of interest and money
________
Volkswagen Group of America
Mercedes Benz
Waymo
Delphi Automotive
Tesla Motors
Bosch
Nissan
GM Cruise LLC
BMW
Honda
Ford
Zoox, Inc.
Drive.ai, Inc.
Faraday & Future Inc.
Baidu USA LLC
Wheego Electric Cars Inc.
Valeo North America, Inc.
NIO USA, Inc.
Telenav, Inc.
NVIDIA Corporation
AutoX Technologies Inc
Subaru
Udacity, Inc
Navya Inc.
Renovo.auto
UATC LLC (Uber)
PlusAi Inc
Nuro, Inc
CarOne LLC
Apple Inc.
Bauer’s Intelligent Transportation
Pony.AI
TuSimple
Jingchi Corp
SAIC Innovation Center, LLC
Almotive Inc
Aurora Innovation
Nullmax
Samsung Electronics
Continental Automotive Systems Inc
Voyage
CYNGN, Inc
Roadstar.Ai

remember when everyone said sup's in the surfing would never catch on... lol

Badger

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 08:33:09 AM »
It would be interesting to view online an up to date daily record of every collision and animal death caused by these cars. The cars should also have a camera in them for a visual record as well. That way people can decide for themselves if autonomy is better at driving than humans.

It must be fun testing them. I would love to be there on the test track throwing things out in front of them and creating difficult collision avoidance challenges.

I think the thing that bothers me is that I'm always nervous if I'm not behind the wheel. I feel helpless being the passenger. There is no way I can sleep or read while someone else is driving. My eyes are constantly on the road.

.



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Eagle

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 09:30:55 AM »
According to the link above.

"Arizona doesn’t require companies to publicly disclose accidents involving its cars, nor the number of times human drivers were forced to take control of their driverless vehicles."

Personally not for me -> but can appreciate the tech and $.
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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 10:09:30 AM »
Google (Alphabet/Waymo) is obviously very confident that these are ready.  They have been out on public roads, driverless, since mid-October.

supdiscobay

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 11:16:13 AM »
OK so I am going to stick my neck out here with all the animal lovers out there!

Based on the number of times I have hit an animal, I would argue that the best way to avoid injury to yourself and your passengers is to not avoid the collision, but hit it straight on.  It is too easy for someone to lose control of their car by swerving to avoid a collision.  The probability of a antlers going through the front windshield and killing you are pretty low.  I would love to save an animal from being hit by me, but I am not going to put my life in danger. 

The same goes for a vehicle collision.  With the airbag systems in our cars these days, a front end collision impact would surely minimize injuries over a side impact or roll-over, if the driver lost control because he took evasive action.  Now if an 18 wheeler runs a red light, you likely will not be able to avoid that, even if you saw it.

There is no doubt within 10 years, they will be on the road with us.   There are areas where they would be very practical for both individual use and commercial use.   If I had one, I suspect I still would sit in the driver seat and pay attention.
 
What amazes me is wondering when my grandchildren are my age, what will be normal?  I don't limit that to driverless cars.
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stoneaxe

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 11:25:59 AM »
Funny....everyone thinks they're a safe driver. Even me and I learned to drive in Boston where turn signals are a sign of weakness and the middle finger is the same as a wave hello. I would gladly give up control if it means the dopes with their cellphones won't be driving anymore.

T-boned by a semi? Semi's will likely be fully autonomous before all passenger cars so you won't have any half asleep truck driver to worry about. If you guys that are being hyper critical were around in 1910 I'm pretty sure you would be saying "that horseless carriage ain't for me". The bottom line is that the roads will be far safer and far far more efficient without mistake prone humans at the wheel. Unless you die before it happens you won't have a choice eventually......mandatory AI control is coming....just a question of how soon. I'm not saying there's no need to be cautious or critical but the arguments against are kind of silly. What's more likely to run over an animal...AI that has visual, radar, sonar, heat sig and who knows what other sensors looking 360 degrees at all times and is traveling the speed limit or the average human that doesn't even check their mirrors, has a cup of coffee and their cellphone in front of them while they drive?

In the time that it takes you to think "OH SHIT" as a raccoon runs in front of you AI will see it, check to see if it is safe to avoid in some manner and if it is brake or manuever...or run it over as necessary. Meanwhile the human either just runs it over as they finish the "OH SHIT" thought or brakes hard instinctually without checking and gets rear ended by that half asleep semi-driver causing a chain reaction accident that kills 10 people....because you decided (actually decide is wrong...reacted is better) incorrectly and didn't kill the raccoon.

Let's be real about the relative dangers.....AI will get rid of what is most dangerous on the road today......humans.

The hard part is what happens when it has to obey the 1st law and make a decision that "minimizes" loss of life.....it might decide that the best course of action is to sacrifice itself (and you) to save a mother and her baby carriage that just stepped in front of you.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 11:57:59 AM by stoneaxe »
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Night Wing

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 11:32:24 AM »
Google (Alphabet/Waymo) is obviously very confident that these are ready.  They have been out on public roads, driverless, since mid-October.

Google may be very confident that these cars are ready, but I'm not. In fact, I'm not confident at all. Not even in the slightest. I'm in the camp below and the quote is from the article from the second link you posted.

Quote
most people are skeptical or flat-out distrust autonomous technology.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:06:28 PM by Night Wing »
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Night Wing

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 12:04:14 PM »
OK so I am going to stick my neck out here with all the animal lovers out there!

Based on the number of times I have hit an animal, I would argue that the best way to avoid injury to yourself and your passengers is to not avoid the collision, but hit it straight on.  It is too easy for someone to lose control of their car by swerving to avoid a collision.  The probability of a antlers going through the front windshield and killing you are pretty low.  I would love to save an animal from being hit by me, but I am not going to put my life in danger.

When it comes to animals, hitting a buck deer at night is just going to mess up the front of your vehicle if you're driving 55 mph if you want to hit it straight on. But where I live in southeast Texas, out in the woods so to speak, we have bigger animals that roam at night.

Case in point, on a road in the dark of night, a 450 pound wild feral hog suddenly darts out in front of your vehicle trying to cross the road, but it doesn't make it. Your vehicle hits the hog at 55 mph and hitting a hog of this size straight on at this speed is like hitting a brick wall.

If you're lucky, the hog will be knocked off to one side of the vehicle. If you're unlucky, with these smaller self driving cars and the front hood angled downwards for aerodynamics, that hog may come up and over the front hood of the vehicle and it will come crashing through the front windshield ending up on top of you inside the vehicle because I'm assuming you're wearing your seat belt so "you will have an welcomed and very heavy guest sitting in your lap" whether you're in the driver's seat or the passenger's seat.

Now if you live in the mountainous regions of Colorado, take the same scenario above, but change the animal to an 800 lb wild bull elk. Hitting a 800 lb elk is going to be a lot worse than hitting a 450 lb feral hog. Think about it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:27:55 PM by Night Wing »
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Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
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Night Wing

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 12:15:55 PM »
T-boned by a semi? Semi's will likely be fully autonomous before all passenger cars so you won't have any half asleep truck driver to worry about. If you guys that are being hyper critical were around in 1910 I'm pretty sure you would be saying "that horseless carriage ain't for me". The bottom line is that the roads will be far safer and far far more efficient without mistake prone humans at the wheel. Unless you die before it happens you won't have a choice eventually......mandatory AI control is coming....just a question of how soon. I'm not saying there's no need to be cautious or critical but the arguments against are kind of silly. What's more likely to run over an animal...AI that has visual, radar, sonar, heat sig and who knows what other sensors looking 360 degrees at all times and is traveling the speed limit or the average human that doesn't even check their mirrors, has a cup of coffee and their cellphone in front of them while they drive?

I'd like to see how these driverless semi's you say are coming with all their sensors, handle some black ice whether in the day time or night time when the semi first encounters it. And lets make it a little more difficult. Lets say the driverless semi encounters the black ice in the curve of the road.

BTW, as soon as I saw this topic thread, I went to my local grocery store and bought plenty of popcorn and beer.  ;)
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Eagle

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Re: Level 4 Autonomy
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2017, 12:25:59 PM »
"A car that can’t drive in the snow would be an unlikely purchase for 70% of the U.S. population, so car makers are now considering solutions to this roadblock."

http://fortune.com/2016/02/10/self-driving-cars-snow/

Am perfectly ok to let the early adopters test and sort this all out.  In the meantime am happily willing to drive an old fashioned stick shift and have a bit of fun driving our cars.

Def when old and want someone else to drive -> that will be the time for quiet tame autonomous for us.  So early adopters please adopt so the tech is perfected for prime time.  :)
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