Author Topic: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27  (Read 35761 times)

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #255 on: October 10, 2017, 11:28:18 AM »
Burchas,
In answer to your questions, the board tracked extremely well.  In fact, I think one thing that the twins do is to minimize any rolling of the board so that it runs flat and fast.  I used the Mana 90 paddle.  I have now switched over to it, from the Konihi 95.  The Mana is just faster on this board, which requires a higher stroke rate.  I think that am getting faster with my stroke rate.  Need to verify with the Speed Coach.  Do you for find yourself ahead or behind the balance point of the board at speed?  I have been standing a bit ahead of it, as the board seemed to require it with the single fin set up.  With the Blackfish twins installed, it seems like I should move back a bit, as the tail does seem to rise due to the water snake.  Thoughts?
               
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yugi

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #256 on: October 10, 2017, 02:28:11 PM »
...
The Mana is just faster on this board, which requires a higher stroke rate.  I think that am getting faster with my stroke rate. 
...

Stroke rate should go up with board speed.


Luc Benac

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #257 on: October 10, 2017, 02:50:57 PM »
...
The Mana is just faster on this board, which requires a higher stroke rate.  I think that am getting faster with my stroke rate. 
...

Stroke rate should go up with board speed.

Unless you are downwinding :-)
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yugi

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #258 on: October 10, 2017, 02:58:20 PM »
how right you are

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #259 on: October 12, 2017, 11:35:37 AM »
To recap, when using the Blackfish twins with the small ventral and the Stinger, I found a huge difference by just moving the Stinger to the back of the fin box.  I think I picked up about two tenths per mile with just that change and the board felt completely different to me.  Nose dominance was essentially gone.  Planning to test today and replace the stinger with a second ventral, but at placed at the back of the fin box this time on some flat water.  If Bill's indications are right for me, this might be the fastest set up yet.  5.3 mph over one mile has been best for me so far.  I am using the Mana 90.   
Infinity Blackfish Custom 14 x 26.75 (4 fins)
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
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KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

burchas

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #260 on: October 12, 2017, 11:47:24 AM »
To recap, when using the Blackfish twins with the small ventral and the Stinger, I found a huge difference by just moving the Stinger to the back of the fin box.  I think I picked up about two tenths per mile with just that change and the board felt completely different to me.  Nose dominance was essentially gone.  Planning to test today and replace the stinger with a second ventral, but at placed at the back of the fin box this time on some flat water.  If Bill's indications are right for me, this might be the fastest set up yet.  5.3 mph over one mile has been best for me so far.  I am using the Mana 90.   

If you're going for one mile only, I would want to try the Konihi VS Mana. Just to cover your options. Longer
distances I would choose the Mana every time.
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Luc Benac

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #261 on: October 12, 2017, 11:54:12 AM »
To recap, when using the Blackfish twins with the small ventral and the Stinger, I found a huge difference by just moving the Stinger to the back of the fin box.  I think I picked up about two tenths per mile with just that change and the board felt completely different to me.  Nose dominance was essentially gone.  Planning to test today and replace the stinger with a second ventral, but at placed at the back of the fin box this time on some flat water.  If Bill's indications are right for me, this might be the fastest set up yet.  5.3 mph over one mile has been best for me so far.  I am using the Mana 90.   

Potentially it might bring the same advantage (interrupting flow or something by being at the back of the box) without the penalty of having a larger fin as a kick. The BF twins by themselves should be enough to provide stability.
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 264L
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Ace-GT 17'4" x 27" 313L
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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #262 on: October 12, 2017, 02:14:51 PM »
I was not able to get a Stealth kick from Larry these past two months plus the more I paddle the less I am interested in flat water (except for technique practises and exercises). So I have pretty much decided to shelve it and run the Whiplash with either a Stinger/ventral or with the Spartan. I am going to focus a lot more on training rather than equipment this coming winter and it should likely give me the most bank for the buck.....
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*Kenalu Mana 82
 
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*Kenalu Mana 90

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #263 on: October 12, 2017, 03:15:49 PM »
Here are the results of my Blackfish Twins plus two small ventrals test.  Ventral kicker at back of the box.  Well, it was not flat today for a first mile comparison, so I had to paddle upwind for two miles to find some flat water out of the wind.  It was about 90 degrees, sunny and very humid.  The heat index had to be in upper 90's.  I only rested about 45 seconds before taking off on a sprint.  So, I was not really fresh.  Still, I paddled hard for .66 miles at 5.3 mph and max speed at 5.6.  That equals a first mile sprint with the Stinger.  So, moving the ventral to the rear of the box also provided an uplift in average speed.  When comparing to set up with Stinger, it felt a bit more wobbly and I had to think about balance a little more, but certainly not unstable.  Did not track as well.  Wandered a bit.  Did not get the rising tail/water snake feeling, but seemed a bit faster upwind with the ventral.  No way to quantify that.  Board seemed a little looser and maybe a bit more glide.  I am not sure what this all means to me yet.  I am going to have to ponder.  But, I am getting it dialed in now.  That's a lot of progress, because I was about to punt when I first got it!! I think another test of the board with Stinger only and the stinger plus ventral are in order now.         
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Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #264 on: February 06, 2018, 08:07:11 AM »
Here is an update:  I did not get a chance to complete the final testing with additional options as previously mentioned.  Now that the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays and Super Bowl have passed, I am now thinking more about spring paddling. 

I am sure I must have mentioned previously, but my Blackfish front ventral was mounted about 28-29 inches forward of the balance point with no fins.  Should have been only 20 inches.  Yesterday, I dropped off my board with a trusted SUP shaper friend, who will perform the surgery to to remove the ventral, repair and replace with a new one in the correct location.  He is also going to take a look at the alignment of all fins to determine if anything else needs attention. 

It is my understanding from conversations with Larry and others that having the ventral too far forward creates a "front fin dominant" condition that interferes with projection/glide, over longer runs.  I spoke with a guy who has completed a huge amount of fin testing on this same board, who has experience with the same problem.  He said that correcting the ventral fin placement has a dramatic effect on projection/glide/speed.  He ventured a guess of .25 mph or more.  It is hard for me to imagine that much uplift from from ventral fin placement alone, but I am hopeful that I will see some improvement.  Does anyone else have thoughts or experience to share? 

Thanks!                 
Infinity Blackfish Custom 14 x 26.75 (4 fins)
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
KeNalu Konihi 95 xTuf(s)
KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

burchas

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #265 on: February 06, 2018, 08:21:41 AM »
I'd suggest NOT to remove the old ventral box but rather install a new one right behind it, that's the way I went about it.
Save some time and money and you'll be able to to test it against the new one for your self.

When it's empty, you could fill it with a plug so you don't have to wary about that aspect.

Never got around to fully test speed differences for the 2 boxes but it sure made a difference in the feel of the board
in choppy waters for me with the ventral on the new box.
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PonoBill

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #266 on: February 06, 2018, 09:08:35 AM »
The ventral fin has to be far enough back to stay submerged when the board bounces in chop. Certainly behind the beginning of the nose rocker but even a bit further back than that to ensure it's pressed under the water.

The twin fins plus kicker is a strange phenomenon, I have no useful theory as to how it works, only that it does, and that the location and size of each fin makes a big difference--even the ventral. With four variables to work with it's a difficult thing to set up, but it's rewarding since every tweak in the right direction makes the board faster. If you didn't have those fins right you'd struggle to make 5 mph, never mind 5.6.

I get a twitch in my eye when Larry talks about hydrodynamics and physics, but there's no question that he understands fins and has some remarkable insights into how to make them work effectively.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 09:10:43 AM by PonoBill »
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Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #267 on: February 06, 2018, 04:11:42 PM »
Burchas, I thought about just adding another box as you suggested. However, I think that would be something to apologize for if I ever sell it. I am going the cleaner route with replacement.

Bill, I am being told that the ventral needs to be closer to the center fin to balance the interaction with the center fin. I am told that it is out of balance due to the excessive distance between. I donít really get it either, but I am going to pay to find out if I can improve it further. I have made great progress in tuning it so far.  Will let everyone know what happens. Should get it back in a couple of weeks or so.
Infinity Blackfish Custom 14 x 26.75 (4 fins)
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
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KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #268 on: February 08, 2018, 01:21:31 PM »
I have been going back through the notes on this string and reviewing the good advice that I have gotten from my fellow zoners, who have kept me sane through this board experience.  One item that I picked up on was that I received a set of white (8 degrees?) inserts that I have never tried.  I guess my thinking was to run through the various options that still existed with the fins, before looking to trying out different inserts.  Maybe get the best set up, before changing that variable.  I think that in looking at the fins, I may have gotten a little confused as to whether this change would help or not.  So, there is that left to try as well.  It will be interesting to see if my shaper thinks the small twins are presently out of balance. 

I just took a high level review of my GPS data.  Over the last couple of years over hundreds of miles, I averaged about 4.7 mph.  Different boards, good and bad days, averaging about 5.5 miles per run.  Since getting the Blackfish in August 2017, my total average speed has been about 4.5 mph over 1.94 average distance.  Lots of shorter runs for testing.  Definitely noted an uptick in the last 4 or five runs of the year, when my average ticked up to about 4.7 mph over 4.5 mile runs on average. 

Getting the board more dialed in has helped.  I think moving the kick fin to the back of the box was a breakthrough.  In my mind, I am still about about two to three tenths of a mile per hour slower on this board than I think that I should be.  I have not really had any 6 mile training runs averaging over 4.8 mph.  That's not bad, but not what I expect based on my experience on other boards.  Hopefully this next round of changes will yield more improvement.                               
Infinity Blackfish Custom 14 x 26.75 (4 fins)
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
KeNalu Konihi 95 xTuf(s)
KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #269 on: March 26, 2018, 05:44:26 PM »
I got my board back today. The old ventral has been removed and the new one set at 20 inches from the no fin balance point.  I also went ahead and installed the white inserts. Visually, I canít see much difference, but they do look more vertical, so maybe these will help. Seems like most people are running the white inserts on the Blackfish. Will give them a try and see. Hope to get out on it tomorrow or Wednesday. Wish me luck!
Infinity Blackfish Custom 14 x 26.75 (4 fins)
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
KeNalu Konihi 95 xTuf(s)
KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex