2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27

[Rideordie]

Thanks Jsup. I look forward to any gains that are available.

Burchas thanks for the thoughts as well. Good ideas!!  Definitely looking forward to the new fins!!

[Rideordie]

Long wait, but fins should be here early next week. 

[Luc Benac]

Nice. Hopefully it also means that my Stealth kick will be on its way too otherwise I will stick with ventral plus Stinger.

[Rideordie]

Good luck Luc. Adding to the fin collection again!!

[Luc Benac]

Good luck Luc. Adding to the fin collection again!!

Had to when going from a Blackfish to a Whiplash :-)
This is what I am waiting for:

[Luc Benac]

I am keeping track of which fin performs above the average in a simple form.
For paddling outside down-winding, the Stingers are working very well.
I have not used the Stealth twins for a couple of months while I am waiting for a Stealth kick from Larry.
The twins with a Stinger kick are just too much fin for me and the ventral with Stinger seems to be working the best for now.
The 6" Stinger also worked really well on the Vapor for "flat" water. Here "flat" stands for some flat but mostly light chop :-)

[ukgm]

So the results of the best runs (no ventral and ventral as kicker)are within 1.7% for the average moving speed.
Is it enough on a very sort distance to be significant, I have no idea. Bill or UGKM might have a better statistical understanding.

Sorry, I missed this thread entirely and am now reading to play catch up.

Is the paddler doing more than run of each configuration ? If not, I'd argue that from what I've seen is that much of the difference between the testers configurations is within the data noise of their process.

Some other thoughts:
- I've had statistically reliable testing over a course of 300m in length (and there are journal papers which have done this too). However, it needs to be performed at a steady state velocity.
- I don't recommend sprint testing. It doesn't produce reliable results and you're taking the board through a range that it won't have the same fluid flow subjected to it as you'd see it in a race (and therefore won't be representative of its actual use).
- I don't use speed as the baseline metric. I use stroke index (borrowed from swimming) whihc is stroke length X speed.
- I've published my testing protocol here before but sometimes admin didn't like it and took it down. As a result if you search for 'Bryce Dyer' and 'fin testing 101', you'll see it come up in google. Alternatively my testing protocol is being published in an academic journal next month.
- I've obtained a high level process (on par with other field test methods used in sport) of a coefficient of variation of less than 3% (SD/Mean X 100).
- It can be done but you have to use as a controlled as an environment as possible. Any evident wind and testing should be stopped.

[ukgm]

  I must confess I enjoyed Larry Cains answer when asked about which fins he likes at the clinic I attended. "Doesn't really matter to me". It's simplistic but he was making the point that it's the last place he looks for speed.

He's wrong. Whilst I've found that that the top of the line fins don't see much between them, if you stick a fin that isn't optimised, it can cost you a ton of speed. This is particularly relevant if the kinds of races you do see packs and trains develop or whether you'll be spending most of your time paddling alone.

[ukgm]

Ah, okay, yes, that's a statistical question that could be made more valid by understanding the precision of the tools, but you can calculate the p-values and effect size--excel will do that for you. It's a limited data set so I'm not sure how to set that up. From a more practical standpoint, with limited data you look for five percent. From an even more practical standpoint (do you really want to do all those tests) pick the setup with the best result and go with that.

With Excel, make sure you lave loaded up the 'data analysis' pack on the toolbar (it's free). If you haven't a quick search on google will send you to sites that show you how. If you do this you can then use the drop down to select an ANOVA single factor or a Two tailed T test to find p values. There are also help videos on youtube I used when starting out.

[ukgm]

So the results of the best runs (no ventral and ventral as kicker)are within 1.7% for the average moving speed.
Is it enough on a very sort distance to be significant, I have no idea. Bill or UGKM might have a better statistical understanding.

- It can be done but you have to use as a controlled as an environment as possible. Any evident wind and testing should be stopped.

... by the way, make sure you are using a half decent GPS unit that is deck mounted (not on your person) and mark your feet position with tape to keep the trim identical. Move even an inch (particulary if you're a big paddler) and you're losing control of the tests.

[Rideordie]

New fins have arrived, but have not had a flat day to test. So, pull the twins and popped in the plus with the 6 inch Stinger for a 3.5 mile race yesterday. Wind was blowing 6 to 10 mph steady. Was able to place 4th out of about 40. Top three ahead of me include two Naish Javelins 26 and one Hobie 24?  I was very competive with them and finished close. Made a wind tactics error that cost me about a minute or two. My average speed was right at 5.0 mph. Max speed was 5.9 sprinting for the finish. I think this board in this configuration is about a tenth lower than my FX, but it is easier to paddle due to great stability. Now to figure out these new twins.  Unfortunately, I think I may need to move the ventral box back about a foot to realize the full potential of the set up.

[Rideordie]

I was able to find some flat water yesterday after paddling upwind for a few miles.  I ran the smaller Blackfish twins with the ventral as a kicker, with No front ventral fin.  Ventral at the front of the rear fin box.  I have kind of given up on the ventral, until I get the front fin box moved back to 20 inches.  Board tracked very well upwind, downwind and cross wind.  On the flats, I was able generate decent speed over a longer run.  MUCH better than the "draggy" large twins, less deceleration between strokes. Still think I may be faster with the single fin (plus plugs) versus Twins set up.  Better glide and less deceleration between strokes, but a bit less stability and tracking.

Next, I will try Twins with no ventral and no kick.  Board is so stable and tracks so well with the Blackfish twins that I don't think I really need a kicker. Might also try the twins with a couple of different kickers, just to be sure I am not missing something.  Larry Allison has been very kind and generous with his fins, time and advice in helping me to find the right combination.  I am going to keep testing and expect to have the fin box moved in the next month or two.  I am hoping that will finally give me the projection that I am seeking.  It is not really fair to be evaluating the overall set up, until the box placement is fully correct. 

Larry says that 425, after convincing speed tests, will be putting their fins on all of their races boards in the future. He adds that Sunova will be putting  them out on some their boards as well.  And the new Whiplash will have the four fin set up as well.   
                             

[Luc Benac]

When I was exchanging emails with Dave Boehne on the subject of ventral box placement it mentioned that anything putting the fin between 20" and 32" from the balance of the board should work.
"the balance point will move depending on how many fins, size of fins, and weight of fins. For more fins/heavier fins move ventral forward. Less fins/lighter fins move ventral back. Watch the change in nose wake, it should decrease with the proper fin placement."

Just a suggestion to play with the placement of the fin maybe before gutting the board.

Also might want to try the small twins with the ventral as a kick all the way back the box.

[burchas]

I was able to find some flat water yesterday after paddling upwind for a few miles.  I ran the smaller Blackfish twins with the ventral as a kicker, with No front ventral fin.  Ventral at the front of the rear fin box.  I have kind of given up on the ventral, until I get the front fin box moved back to 20 inches.  Board tracked very well upwind, downwind and cross wind.  On the flats, I was able generate decent speed over a longer run.  MUCH better than the "draggy" large twins, less deceleration between strokes. Still think I may be faster with the single fin (plus plugs) versus Twins set up.  Better glide and less deceleration between strokes, but a bit less stability and tracking.

Next, I will try Twins with no ventral and no kick.  Board is so stable and tracks so well with the Blackfish twins that I don't think I really need a kicker. Might also try the twins with a couple of different kickers, just to be sure I am not missing something.  Larry Allison has been very kind and generous with his fins, time and advice in helping me to find the right combination.  I am going to keep testing and expect to have the fin box moved in the next month or two.  I am hoping that will finally give me the projection that I am seeking.  It is not really fair to be evaluating the overall set up, until the box placement is fully correct. 

Larry says that 425, after convincing speed tests, will be putting their fins on all of their races boards in the future. He adds that Sunova will be putting  them out on some their boards as well.  And the new Whiplash will have the four fin set up as well.   
                           

It will be nice to see GPS results. All 4 fins. Small Blackfish, Thresher and ventral in front.
You do have the Thresher 5.75" fin, right? Why have given up on the ventral?

[Rideordie]

Luc, I will play with it some more and see what I can find. Larry says 20 inches from board balance point with no fins. Right now my front box is about 29 inches and I feel only drag when I use the ventral. That is in the range defined by Dave and does not seem to work for me. Larry says that is too far forward. So, I guess I am hoping that Larry is right. I heard the same thing (20 inches) in my discussions with from Mark Frechou at Abita Board Barn. Mark is a tester for Larry.