Author Topic: Morning Naish porn  (Read 20280 times)

ukgm

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 01:30:48 AM »
Hmm, so the question is, have they truly abandoned the Javelin flatwater then (as this does indeed look like its been tailored more for offshore and not for all round use).

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 02:48:46 PM »
Gorgeous board!

Area 10

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2017, 03:05:32 PM »
Hmm, so the question is, have they truly abandoned the Javelin flatwater then (as this does indeed look like its been tailored more for offshore and not for all round use).
How many prestigious races worldwide are there that take place in pure flat water and/or their top athletes want to take part in? Exactly. So why bother with a flat water board?

Possibly also there will be an increasing specialisation of the brands. Naish is a windsurf brand, with a strong ocean heritage. Perhaps they will let the (inland) outdoor/kayak brands take the flat water market. They have the distribution networks for that, and understand that market. Naish know the ocean market.

Just speculating.

It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway ;)

Luc Benac

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2017, 03:16:17 PM »
It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway ;)

It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway regretfully  ::)
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Area 10

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2017, 05:22:27 PM »
It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway ;)

It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway regretfully  ::)
Well, what the big brands do now to keep their income revenue flowing is probably hardly relevant to real SUP enthusiasts. We'll move to customs anyway, just like in the surf industry, and carry on paddling. SUP racing has probably already jumped the shark, and the Olympic wrangling will just be another nail in that coffin.

What has been remarkable this year in the U.K. has been the huge influx of new people to SUP. But they are a different breed than before. Whereas for the last decade, SUP in the U.K. has been taken up by people who already had a background in some other watersport, the people who have been taking up SUP over the last year in particular have little or no watersports background. Their horizons and aspirations are quite limited from the perspective of the old hands. They just want to pootle around on a cheap inflatable for 30 mins, or go for a snooze-cruise with the kids or dog and stop for coffee. They are not really aware of SUP as a sport. It is a recreation to them, and they want to do it as cheaply as possible. They are buying their boards at Costco etc, and paying less for them than the enthusiasts pay for a paddle. These people are largely not potential Naish customers. Even the Naish inflatables cost more than they are willing to pay. The N1SCO race series has been a great success, but I suspect it isn't generating many new Naish customers: people are just renting the boards for the race because it's cheaper than renting them at the local beach for an hour.
 
So, racing has got too serious now for wide appeal, and the gear is becoming ever more difficult to use and more expensive every year (strangely, not cheaper...). So that is limiting hard board sales. Surf SUPs are only a very small part of the market. And at the lower end, the volume sales are going to the new budget inflatable brands and Costco Wavestorm-type cheapo ultra-heavy hard boards. So the bigger brands probably are seeing their market share squeezed there as well. So, where is the profit to be made?

At the other end of the scale are those ultra-competitive types who have seen Kai best all the SUPs on a foil at Maliko, and so have decided that that is now the top of the food chain, so will pour money into that for a couple of seasons. This will suck out of the SUP market a lot of people who'd otherwise be buying top-end race SUPs. So these are not new customers.

So we are looking at an increasingly fragmented and specialised market on the one hand, and competition from uber-cheap brands to cater to the volume sales on the other, with it being anyone's guess as to how things will go in the next couple of years. Under those circumstances it would be unsurprising if the established brands consolidated around what made them established brands in the first place, and looked to trim the fat and reduce financial risks. So bye-bye Javelin, I'm afraid you weren't making enough money and don't appeal too much to our key demographic (ocean athletes).

But as I say, this is all pure speculation.

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2017, 05:31:31 PM »
your flatout fun/testing PonoBill  :D
and let us know what you think of the sanova and try to test the new maliko also?

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2017, 06:02:29 PM »
@Area10.....I think your comments are spot on.  I see alot of folks that want to "try" sup and they really don't get any training or experience before they buy. So often they don't do well, and give it up quickly.  Frankly I don't see how the top brands that build quality products can survive. But I sure hope they do.  I've only been in the sport for a few years,  but even with my limited exposure I can see that top brands such as SIC have a struggle coming up with new ways to get people into the sport in an affordable way,  and still be able to pay the bills. I assume that is why they allowed BIC to get involved.  (much like BMW taking over MINI production).
Like any sport and all sports,  there are peaks and valleys and the tide ebbs and flows. SUP is the main "stoke" in my life at the moment and I love to talk it up with anyone that wants to listen or give it a try. I just hope that top companies will continue to survive and build top quality products that differentiate them from the run of the mill mass production stuff that shows up at Costco, etc.
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burchas

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2017, 09:09:00 PM »
Double downwinder today. Not great conditions and strong current according to PonoBill but
still enough to break my personal best for Viento again at 1:28.

This board is fast! I'm able to hang-out or leave behind people I usually come behind.
I was sure I'll be able to nose dive it today as there was some good size swell. I was coming
off a big swell planted the entire nose in at about 8mph but was still able to control the board,
no dive. Nose popped-up and the board kept going.

One thing I noticed today with the big swells is, the board has A LOT of flex in it, it was very
noticeable. I never felt this kind of flex before. I'm not sure what to make of it, I'll have to
explore further.

My concern about the board fin box placement was noticeable today as well.
The box is located 6" from the tail, even on the biggest swell I was never that far behind on
the board.

It is clear the fin placement is somewhat stalling board speed on the bumps and one really have
to ride a very small fin like 6" or less to compensate for that.

The problem is it will only work on killer wind days, if there is enough paddle engagement like
today where you need a fin with enough base for drive, this works against you.

If I'll ever end up with this board, the first thing I'll do is move its fin box (and of course add
the Larry Allison setup with ventral assist). But that would only be a 24" wide board, this 26"
is way too stable for me.

Hoping for better conditions tomorrow.
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yugi

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2017, 11:42:29 PM »
Try a Focus Bluefin. It's a similar shape but has the fin box further front, a wee bit more tail kick and a nose that comes up quicker if you poke it. IMO more fun DW. Not quite as quick on flats.

Only hassle is it's heavier. The lightness of the Maliko is a dream.

So, compared to a Badfish?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 11:47:46 PM by yugi »

Area 10

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2017, 11:59:37 PM »
Very interesting, burchas. Flex has often been a bit of a Naish issue over the years. I'd have hoped that he full PVC wrap for 2018 would have helped. But perhaps in order to compensate for the extra weight they've compromised in materials elsewhere? A kind of durability/stiffness trade-off? Mind you, new boards often seem to wobble a bit for some reason, and sometimes this seems to settle down after a while. I am at a total loss as to why this might be. And it's hard to make a light board that doesn't flex at all downwind. If you press the front deck hard with your finger, how much does it give?

On the fin placement, I wonder if the reason for it might become apparent if you were on flat water or doing lots of buoy turns in a race, (or even perhaps being drafted), rather than downwinding it. After all, this is a do-it-all board, so there are going to be compromises somewhere. And if you keep putting in PBs downwind, maybe it's not slowing you down too much after all?

And "too stable"? Lucky you. Could it be that it is this stability that is one of the main reasons why you are so fast on the board? I find that stability = fast average speeds when downwinding. You are not wasting energy balancing, and can keep an even keel so are not scrubbing off speed sinking the rails (there are however disadvantages in bump-catching and top speed but these can be compensated for by the other advantages). You might find the 24 would actually be slower for you - but only one way to find out :)


ukgm

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2017, 12:44:47 AM »
It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway ;)

It's all about foils and inflatables now anyway regretfully  ::)
Well, what the big brands do now to keep their income revenue flowing is probably hardly relevant to real SUP enthusiasts. We'll move to customs anyway, just like in the surf industry, and carry on paddling. SUP racing has probably already jumped the shark, and the Olympic wrangling will just be another nail in that coffin.

What has been remarkable this year in the U.K. has been the huge influx of new people to SUP. But they are a different breed than before. Whereas for the last decade, SUP in the U.K. has been taken up by people who already had a background in some other watersport, the people who have been taking up SUP over the last year in particular have little or no watersports background. Their horizons and aspirations are quite limited from the perspective of the old hands. They just want to pootle around on a cheap inflatable for 30 mins, or go for a snooze-cruise with the kids or dog and stop for coffee. They are not really aware of SUP as a sport. It is a recreation to them, and they want to do it as cheaply as possible. They are buying their boards at Costco etc, and paying less for them than the enthusiasts pay for a paddle. These people are largely not potential Naish customers. Even the Naish inflatables cost more than they are willing to pay. The N1SCO race series has been a great success, but I suspect it isn't generating many new Naish customers: people are just renting the boards for the race because it's cheaper than renting them at the local beach for an hour.
 
So, racing has got too serious now for wide appeal, and the gear is becoming ever more difficult to use and more expensive every year (strangely, not cheaper...). So that is limiting hard board sales. Surf SUPs are only a very small part of the market. And at the lower end, the volume sales are going to the new budget inflatable brands and Costco Wavestorm-type cheapo ultra-heavy hard boards. So the bigger brands probably are seeing their market share squeezed there as well. So, where is the profit to be made?

At the other end of the scale are those ultra-competitive types who have seen Kai best all the SUPs on a foil at Maliko, and so have decided that that is now the top of the food chain, so will pour money into that for a couple of seasons. This will suck out of the SUP market a lot of people who'd otherwise be buying top-end race SUPs. So these are not new customers.

So we are looking at an increasingly fragmented and specialised market on the one hand, and competition from uber-cheap brands to cater to the volume sales on the other, with it being anyone's guess as to how things will go in the next couple of years. Under those circumstances it would be unsurprising if the established brands consolidated around what made them established brands in the first place, and looked to trim the fat and reduce financial risks. So bye-bye Javelin, I'm afraid you weren't making enough money and don't appeal too much to our key demographic (ocean athletes).

But as I say, this is all pure speculation.

Give me a month and I'll give you some hard numbers on this. At a current glance, number sin races are not increasing for any class or gender and the numbers in N1sco are up. The number of hire boards is about the same as last year but its too soon to know how many turn into owners.

DavidJohn

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2017, 04:23:09 AM »
Re the fin box position.. IMO the distance from the tail is relevant to the tail shape..

A narrower or pin'ier tail requires the box to be a little more up from the tail.. and a wider squared off tail (like the Maliko) is like chopping the tail off a more pin'ier board so they end up in a very similar position.

Thanks for the pictures and info re the new Maliko.. I can't wait till they arrive in Oz (in about 6 weeks).. Do you think there's any more 'quick tip' than last years board?

warmuth

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2017, 07:06:56 AM »
Very interesting, burchas. Flex has often been a bit of a Naish issue over the years. I'd have hoped that he full PVC wrap for 2018 would have helped. But perhaps in order to compensate for the extra weight they've compromised in materials elsewhere? A kind of durability/stiffness trade-off? Mind you, new boards often seem to wobble a bit for some reason, and sometimes this seems to settle down after a while. I am at a total loss as to why this might be. And it's hard to make a light board that doesn't flex at all downwind. If you press the front deck hard with your finger, how much does it give?

On the fin placement, I wonder if the reason for it might become apparent if you were on flat water or doing lots of buoy turns in a race, (or even perhaps being drafted), rather than downwinding it. After all, this is a do-it-all board, so there are going to be compromises somewhere. And if you keep putting in PBs downwind, maybe it's not slowing you down too much after all?

And "too stable"? Lucky you. Could it be that it is this stability that is one of the main reasons why you are so fast on the board? I find that stability = fast average speeds when downwinding. You are not wasting energy balancing, and can keep an even keel so are not scrubbing off speed sinking the rails (there are however disadvantages in bump-catching and top speed but these can be compensated for by the other advantages). You might find the 24 would actually be slower for you - but only one way to find out :)

  The sidewinder with its full pvc wrap flexes more than any of my other boards. It's lighter than the vapor and the whiplash by a good 5 pounds so that makes sense. The 404 at the same weight though didn't have as much flex. It does have a recess deck however and that is probably the difference. While I doubt the flex has any effect on speed I always cringe a little when it slams incoming chop or smacks down paddling over a wave in the surf.

burchas

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2017, 09:57:36 AM »
Try a Focus Bluefin. It's a similar shape but has the fin box further front, a wee bit more tail kick and a nose that comes up quicker if you poke it. IMO more fun DW. Not quite as quick on flats.

Only hassle is it's heavier. The lightness of the Maliko is a dream.

So, compared to a Badfish?

Tried the Bluefin 14x23.5. Liked it a lot. The new Shape looks even more promising where they
took some of its "Boxiness" from the nose section. Buoy turns were much sharper on it.
Didn't have the chance to try on a full on downwinder but I can tell you that  for me, in rough
water the Maliko will win hands down.

As for comparison to my Badfish? I'm sure my Badfish has its advantages but I just can't think
of one right now ;).

BTW, the new Naish feels heavier than previous model. Not a fact, just how it feels to me.

On the fin placement, I wonder if the reason for it might become apparent if you were on flat water or doing lots of buoy turns in a race, (or even perhaps being drafted), rather than downwinding it. After all, this is a do-it-all board, so there are going to be compromises somewhere. And if you keep putting in PBs downwind, maybe it's not slowing you down too much after all?

And "too stable"? Lucky you. Could it be that it is this stability that is one of the main reasons why you are so fast on the board? I find that stability = fast average speeds when downwinding. You are not wasting energy balancing, and can keep an even keel so are not scrubbing off speed sinking the rails (there are however disadvantages in bump-catching and top speed but these can be compensated for by the other advantages). You might find the 24 would actually be slower for you - but only one way to find out :)

I had a long flatwater session with it, tracking was never an issue with this board even with
a small Black Project Sonic fin, buoy turns turns however, could be sharper, moving the fin
forward will definitely help with that.

As for stability, you're very right. I'm pretty sure the 24 will be slower for me in certain conditions
but one of the reason I go for narrow boards is to keep challenging my self, I find it fun and
satisfying. If I want to relax or be more comfortable in bigger conditions, I'll use other boards.

Re the fin box position.. IMO the distance from the tail is relevant to the tail shape..

A narrower or pin'ier tail requires the box to be a little more up from the tail.. and a wider squared off tail (like the Maliko) is like chopping the tail off a more pin'ier board so they end up in a very similar position.

Thanks for the pictures and info re the new Maliko.. I can't wait till they arrive in Oz (in about 6 weeks).. Do you think there's any more 'quick tip' than last years board?

As far as I understand it, the other aspect to take under consideration for fin placement outside
of tail width is tail kick and release.

The double concave on this board turns into a V at about 30inches off the tail which seems to
align with the foot positioning on the steepest bumps and most comfortable point for buoy turns.
I would think you'd want the fin closer to this point for both cases in order to have better control
of the board. That's just my feeling but on my SIC board it made all the difference.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by 'quick tip', please explain. I'll try to put more pictures
and videos.
- M15 15x27x4.5 https://bit.ly/2WmuEpt
- Ocean Ripple 16x25 @ 251L
- SIC Standamaran (S-16) - https://goo.gl/7myGAo
- Wide Tail 10x31x4 @ 149L
- SIC FX 12.6 2X - https://goo.gl/GOkSHT
- Red 2017 Elite 14x25
- ZRE Lightning 75
- Kenalu Mana 82
- Kialoa Hulu 87
- QuickBlade Trifecta 86

DavidJohn

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Re: Morning Naish porn
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2017, 02:04:46 AM »
"I'm not sure I know what you mean by 'quick tip', please explain."

A lot of the newer boards like the NSP's have a more rounder rail now and their initial stability is compromised giving it a 'quick tip' feel and it's not till you tip the board a it way over that the secondary stability kicks in.. Dugouts also feel this way.. I'm hoping that the rounded softer rails towards the front of the board hasn't caused it to loose some of its initial stability.