Author Topic: Guild Factor and Board thickness?  (Read 2675 times)

exiled

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Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« on: June 07, 2017, 01:11:16 PM »
Okay, question for the masses out there.
Say you have two surfers on 8x28 boards. One board is 4 in thick and the other is 4.5, but the guild factor is the same since the second surfer is heavier. Assuming that our shaper is doing everything they can to optimize rail shape, what, if any, performance differences will the two riders experience?

Paddle On

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 10:25:56 AM »
i can tell you from experience that where the volume is distributed is key to performance and stability. thinned out rails up the performance and lower stability.

who came up with the "guild factor" and does it mean much?
Paddle On 6.2, 215lbs - Portal Barra 7.11, Infinity 8.2 RNB, 8.3 Portal Phantom, Infinity B-line 8.5, Infinity 10.0 New Deal, Starboard 9.0 Hero, Starboard 12.0 Big Easy

Bean

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 10:41:41 AM »
In general I would agree with Paddle On.

But, assuming that all the dims are equal, the 4.5" board, with the heavier rider will likely (but not necessarily) have a more pronounced, domed deck.   

outcast

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 11:11:56 AM »
Ok....I just dropped down to a Guild of  1.   if that is important
Same shaper....AJ Finian  Cannibal  Great guy...good East Coast stuff
Went from 8'4x30  to 8 x30....but super thin rails and 15 liters less

love the board, but absolutely starts sinking if not in motion....not less stable once moving...just harder to get up

BUT......Thinning the rails meant way less float in the tail, so i am standing much more forward ...In front of handle etc
Probably about 6" more forward of tail than before
That means I have to work to get back quickly as soon as i can on the drop.  Never thought about this before....It's a factor.

But wow...liking those rails...performance upgrade for sure 
i think this board gets in as  just easy in part because i already am more forward
Also...smaller board does not seem worse with 'yaw'....thinking that the sunken tail acts as rudder?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 11:13:56 AM by outcast »
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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 11:42:29 AM »
Outcast, how much do you weigh and what liters is your new board?
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Pierre

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 12:03:29 PM »
for a good similar overall performance, if volume proportional to weight,and second surfer a little taller, i would make the secon board bout 29'' wide... so just a bit over 4,3" thick, as he's heavier and a bit taller, his stability should be equivalent, giving control, and his weight allowing similar moves.... still improves if we increase a bit board length, i lost my stability tables... but above as a rule of thumb, works.
just increasing thickness may just reduce stability.
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

outcast

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 07:59:23 AM »
PaddleOn
   I respectfully decline to answer the question, as it would either negate any value to the Guild factor, or question my math-ability.

   I think the Guild factor and volume measurements are way too simple, and a search of old forum would show my distain:
 
  https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,3931.30.html

  Pierre tried to answer the question....my personal belief is that rail outline is huge.....hence the Tomos
  Have been on boards that felt "too corky" and not stable  (too many liters)

  Age is a factor...I'm 58 and although my new board paddles stable, it's the pop-ups that are killin me, way worse then prone cause the boards not movin.
  You are 6'2"'  means your center of gravity is higher than most, so shouldn't that be a factor?

  Is the Guild an "OK " thing...?maybe as a rough guide....I thought i would have a different board...maybe the MadDog, but i looked at my buy, and said  "I can do this before i looked at the liters....If I had looked at the liters first i would have probably never thought yes
 
  And then there's the whole thing about how the numbers are calculated....most come from the computer, my one-off lost foam after that, but glass got added....yadayada 

  But back to the OP...if the foam/liters can be packed into a non-functional part of the board, and the rails/outline the same....then not much....that means you gotta stuff the deck somewhere, and domed decks for me are not stable cause i pronate too much....
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 08:10:03 AM by outcast »
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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 01:22:48 PM »
OC -

i am not questioning your body mass or ability to do math, pretty simple division including googling your lbs to kg, ha! i know that guys who are 165lbs and will never know what it is like to throw around 200lbs (and visa versa), so i am always looking for guys of my largeness to compare notes with (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,31931.0.html). i am 55 yrs and getting a board that is 1.09 guild factor and i was told by the shop that the important number was going from 29" wide to 28" wide and to not freak out that the Liters which went from 112L to 98L. i never thought i would be going for a board this small, but i also have enough experience going down in size to know that the demo-before-you-try anthem is just plain BS as it takes a good 3 weeks to know how to handle a smaller board when taking a big step down in size. being full aware that at some point i will go too small.

PO
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outcast

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 06:07:41 PM »
PO..
   I know...i was just being an academic dick
   So the drop off is similar,....I'm right at 200
   
   My justification for dropping was that everytime i have dropped....it is painful for a while and then becomes comfortable....it's almost embarassing falling all over the place, but the skill set for sup is not just about waveriding imho, and i like being able to paddle out standing and am not a knee-er
   I'm also over the "snag every wave"

   That having been said...i think i'm at my limit.....
   I think that this new board will be a hoot....but 2 factors i may not be able to get around were i to go any smaller
   
   1.  If it aint moving it begins to sink.....so it's going to change how i stay in the lineup...more frenetic i guess
   2.  Honestly popping up takes forethought....if i don't push right with both hands it tilts, and  i need to take a paddle swat quickly just to get some water moving.   And the nose can sink, which def makes it unstable.

    So i'm guessing that 98 will be a limit for you too, but i dunno, maybe after another season, we will go smaller yet

   My initiial thoughts for a next board were to be thinner like 28 281/2, but this board looked so sexy, and thin rails with a nice outline I knew i could paddle it, it IS 30 wide.........i was abit shocked at the volume ...I'm with you on the demo thing

   I mean if you are comfortable on the 112, then you either stay comfortable, or take a chance and make yourself uncomfortable for either a while,  (or perhaps a long time) ...give me this season on this one,,i dunno

           
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exiled

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 06:08:58 PM »
How much does rider weight counteract rail thickness on a sup? Can you ever get away with a thicker rail on a high performance board? Given how thick even the smallest sups are, is there such a thing as a surf sup with rails that are too thin?

outcast

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 06:34:28 PM »
we have fairly steep beachbreak (sometimes) and i wanted thin rails to bite in and stay high

Rails can be quite thick and fun,,,depends on the wave
SUP rails much thicker in general than surfboard rails

My rails may be too thin....if having another 10 liters of float would make the board more stable...but i don't think it would

I'm not a shaper, and we have a pretty good shape shack section may be best for your question...but that is the challenge for shapers...there are boards out there with a stepped deck which i always thought made some sense
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outcast

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 06:58:26 AM »
PO,
  just a note.
  Had family time yest by a pond, so i pulled her out...
  Guild factor exactly 1, as with a totally still pond and totally still me,  it sank up until just 1-2" of nose tip only was showing...essentially complete submersion

  More importantly i was able to do something that i have done with windsurfers, and that was to drive the board forward with the nose submerged.   (Board under water moving forward) Helped me find a balance point where nose kick pushes the board up, vs a pearl dive....i do think avoiding a pearl when fisrt standing up is a lot of the stability loss, so hopefully understanding that balance will help   Gave me some confidence. 
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outcast

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Re: Guild Factor and Board thickness?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2017, 12:46:54 PM »
For Exiled...
there is a 1/4 bump running between my fingers down the length of the board for about 8"....provides lateral resistance...to me stability
Doesn't photograph well with the camo sorry
Too many for the rack
Some in the shack
Some under decks
Some have straps