Author Topic: F16 tiller and paddle questions  (Read 3044 times)

nalu-sup

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F16 tiller and paddle questions
« on: June 05, 2017, 11:07:27 PM »
Hello to anyone with F16 experience, or even general downwind knowledge to pass on to a couple of newbies.
We had a nice Maui south shore run today, our second on our new F16s, and our fifth downwind run total. Both my wife and I thought that we may have made some discoveries today, but wanted to hear from more experienced folks about whether we are on the right track, or off the rails.
1. When we got our new F16 v2s a week or so ago, we warmed up on them by surfing some tiny waves to get the feeling for steering the board during glides. At the time I thought that it worked best when the tiller arm was extended all the way back, so that I could still reach it when the board was gliding and I had moved back some. Off course once my rear foot was all the way back on the rudder post at top speed the tiller was out of reach, but by then I was steering with the board and paddle anyway. During our downwinder today, with our foot on the tiller, it often felt like we were a little too far back to easily catch the bumps. It often felt like I wanted to shift my weight a little further forward to get the board to drop in. On my first south shore run, I was on a borrowed F16 with the tiller arm shortened some (I cannot remember how much), and it felt like it was easier to get into the bumps, and then just surf off the tail and forget the tiller until things slowed down again. We just shortened our tiller arms all the way forward to see what that will do tomorrow. Are we nuts, or on to something??
2. Our SUS paddles are about forehead height for both of us, which is perfect at about 178 cm for me. It was suggested that we get longer paddles for downwinding, so I went up to about 190 cm for me. This feels fine when paddling on flat water, but when I start really stroking to catch a bump, it feels too long. My top hand is way up over my head when I get low for power, and it feels tough to get the rapid cadence that I need. Today I tried dropping my top hand down the shaft a few inches ala Conner Baxter for his sprints, and it felt way better. We were thinking about taking our SUS paddles on the next downwinder. It will probably be a little more tiring on the legs because we will need to stay more flexed all the time, but we are thinking that it will be easier to get that quick cadence sprint to catch bumps, just like we would on our wave boards. On a side note, we both feel that the longer paddles are killing our shoulders, but that could just be from powering much bigger and heavier boards than our wave SUPs. Again, are we crazy, or on to something??
Thanks for any thoughts on these experiments.
8'7" Sunova Flow 
8'8" Sunova SP25
9'0" Elua Makani
9'0" Tabou SupaSurf 
14' SIC Bullet 2020

PonoBill

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Re: F16 tiller and paddle questions
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 11:23:16 PM »
Tiller length and position is something you can tune. Most ASS board have multiple locations for the tiller, so you can move the whole thing forward some if you need to. Generally, yes, you need to have your weight forward to get into a bump. If it's a small one and you can keep the nose out of the wave in front--either by steering or just stepping back with your back foot and getting lower on the board you can keep your foot on the tiller for best control. Stepping back is pretty much only for the times you're in a big, steep bump and can't control the board any other way or moving at such a high speed that you need the nose clear of any potential crashes.

I think paddle length is becoming a matter of technique. If you reach hard, push your paddle forward as you put it in the water, like pushing mail through a slot, and then set your blade by pushing down more than pulling back, and continue that downward effort as you stroke, then you need a longer shaft than normal. If you're reaching and pulling with the lower hand without fully engaging the blade with a downward push of the upper hand, then use a shorter one.

Your flatwater stroke and your downwind stroke should be almost identical. You need power in downwinding the same as you do in flat water or surfing. If you're rushing the stroke, not getting a catch, and trying to compensate with cadence, then you're going to miss a lot of bumps you could have had. When swells are big and there isn't a lot of smaller and medium-sized bumps to connect to the big guys, then short strokes, way out in front might accelerate you enough to score. But the strokes should have a good catch and be efficient, not rushed splashing.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 11:25:30 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Blue crab

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Re: F16 tiller and paddle questions
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 12:05:26 AM »
The F16 is a great board but it does take some time to dial in.  I would suggest not tinkering too much with other variables (paddle length, tiller length) until you've done >5 runs and really have a feel for the intricacies of the board. I had all of the symptoms you describe when I first bought the board (shoulder pain, leg fatigue leading to falls) but these dissipated as I was able to relax on the board. I never did get around to adjusting my paddle length.

My major first step with the board was realizing that I didn't need to paddle as hard, or as often, as I had on my 14'.  This was the key take home point from my time in Maui with JR.  The F16 wants to get into troughs, and will do so with little effort if you position it properly. Don't kill yourself sprinting for each and every bump.  Use the rudder to position the nose of the board right at the crest of a passing bump.  If a bump is accelerating out of reach, don't sweat it. Just inch in so the next one is easier to catch.  On really good Viento runs last summer, I'd get into a full out sprint fewer than 5 times per run. The board really does a lot of the work for you.

Area 10

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Re: F16 tiller and paddle questions
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 01:20:24 AM »
I suspect you are right on both counts but that the difference in experiences and so the advice you get here is all about the differences in conditions that people are paddling. Small steep short period stuff against a current requires you to get very far forward on a board to catch the bump (and then get back quick), and paddle furiously on occasion, especially if downbreezing. By contrast, big longer period stuff requires you to be well behind the handle, and with a good blow you don't need to paddle much. And then there are all sorts of conditions in between these extremes.

As regards paddle length, yes, I use a paddle for DW that is close to my surf length. In fact it is about halfway in length between my surf paddle and my flat water paddle. It is better IMO to use a surf length paddle than a flat water length one for DW, although this does depend on how thick your surf SUP is, and how thick your DW board is. If you use a very short surf paddle, and have a 7"+ thick DW board then things can start to get plain stoopid. So you need to use your common sense. But in general DWing requires more bending of the knees for stability and control etc than flat water paddling, so if you use a paddle adjusted for FW when DWing you are likely to put strain on your shoulders and maybe not be able to paddle with sufficiently high cadence in some conditions when fast bursts of effort are required. I quite often have short bursts of 90-120 spm when DWing (but I DW in seriously messy short period stuff where the bumps are often shaped by wind against current so YMMV), whereas 47-49 spm is typical for me in flat water.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 01:22:37 AM by Area 10 »

Eagle

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Re: F16 tiller and paddle questions
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 09:41:33 PM »
"My major first step with the board was realizing that I didn't need to paddle as hard, or as often, as I had on my 14'.  This was the key take home point from my time in Maui with JR."

This is what I noticed off the bat.  More steer into the drops and keep the board powered up on the wave.  Average speed was quite a bit faster than a 14 with much more glide.  14 has a lot more stop and go feel.  Shorter paddle works and we use a big blade.  Seemed more about finesse and position to get you in the groove.

Now difference with someone like Norm -> is that he can make his 14 go faster than me on any UL pretty much any day.  His power to weight is very high.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

nalu-sup

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Re: F16 tiller and paddle questions
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 01:35:20 AM »
Many thanks to all you guys. Your advice at this point in the process is invaluable. My wife and I tried both of our experiments today, and had our best run yet. The wind on the south side had a touch of west in it (348 degrees), so I decided to try our first launch from Kealia instead of the shorter run from the canoe hale which I thought would be too much work trying to get far offshore against that slightly onshore wind. It was a perfect lineup from Kealia; I stood on the beach with the wind exactly at my back, and my nose was pointed perfectly at the take out at Sorentos in the far distance. Launched off the beach and it was perfect downwind right to the end. We both loved using our surf paddles. I tend to bend my knees a lot at the catch, and the shorter paddle was perfect for that. It also gave us that faster cadence we needed to catch twice as many bumps, and to keep up the speed on the glides when needed. Shifting the tiller arm all the way forward was also magic for catching bumps much easier; it recaptured that magic feeling of that first time I was on an F16.
The run today had three distinct phases for us, and I am wondering how much of that is our skill level, and how much everyone would be affected. The first third was just pure easy pleasure; lots of wind (about 24 mph) to push us out, and the feeling of almost constant gliding on the small ripples and bumps using more of a flat water stroke. The middle section was pure excitement; bigger longer swells with long high speed rides off the tail to keep the nose up. Often just three or four very quick strokes and we were off and running. I had my first really good diagonal ride along a face that seemed to go on forever, and then linked up to five or six more bumps before slowing down. Great fun. The last third was just plain work without so much fun. There was a lot more confused cross chop, lighter wind, but the biggest problem was that the swells were now much bigger and traveling a lot faster, so at our skill level we could not catch them even when they were steep and lined up perfectly. Not sure if it was a case of endurance or technique, but it was frustrating for both of us to have swell after swell wash under us and not be able to catch a glide. One thing seemed clear; the big bumps were coming from the outside and were way to fast for us to catch, and there were smaller bumps coming from the shore direction which were catchable for awhile until the big ones coming from the right controlled the water so much that they kept knocking us off the smaller ones coming from the left before we could get a decent glide going to connect that speed to the bigger ones.
So much to learn. Thanks to you guys for taking the time to pass on your hard earned wisdom.
8'7" Sunova Flow 
8'8" Sunova SP25
9'0" Elua Makani
9'0" Tabou SupaSurf 
14' SIC Bullet 2020

PonoBill

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Re: F16 tiller and paddle questions
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 04:41:24 PM »
You just described the standard southside run, except for one additional element that is blessedly rare. What a friend of mine who will remain unnamed described as "the wind turned around and came in my face" which soulds more like porno than a downwind--but it happens.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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