Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 255831 times)

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1035 on: March 27, 2019, 02:54:26 AM »
I remember communicating on behalf of Cannondale (way back when). I would have been fired for sharing:
a) a lie
b) anything that wasn't 100% truthful

The goal was to share new development, and some of the advantages of Cannondale bikes. Back then though, people would "read between the lines" and ask questions. If I said: The Synapse is a very comfortable bike, people would ask me HOW did they make it comfortable, and others would ask me HOW this "comfortable" bike would do in sprints.

In the end, the younger guy looking for a comfy road bike would take a look at the Synapse, and the young sprinter would look at something else. Point being, people asked questions. We should ask more, and perhaps read more.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1036 on: March 27, 2019, 03:04:42 AM »
Stability is such a problem for communication simply because peoples’ judgenents of stability are so wildly different. I have learnt over the last 12 years that unless someone remarks specifically that a particular board is so stable you could hold a picnic on it, I’m going to find it tippy. And many people (indeed, perhaps even most of the entire SUP-user population) are worse balance-wise than I am.

Some people’s balance abilities are simply extraordinary. And there are quite a few of them, and for obvious reasons they tend to be those who get asked to do reviews more often than the average SUPer. But they really have NO IDEA how bad the rest of us are, or that what they find so trivial is extremely difficult or totally impossible for the vast majority of people.

So, for sure some people are basically being paid to lie in reviews and social media, and are knowingly doing this. But there are many more elite athletes who simply have no idea what it is like to be in the bodies of the rest of us. If they had to swap with us for a day they’d be absolutely horrified!

I get quite irritated when I see people claiming that a board that is sub-25” side is “very stable”. They might mean “very stable for a board this width”, but no board under about 27” wide should really be called “stable”, period. Maybe even 28-29” (or much wider in the case of short SUPs). Because that simply doesn’t accord with the majority of people’s experiences.

I just don’t listen at all to the views of anyone who uses a 21.5” wide board or less. 23” in pure flat water is about my limit. I *can* paddle a 21.5x14 but it is a horrible, and very slow, experience. If I wanted that kind of experience I might as well just stay at home and dunk my gentials repeatedly into a pan of boiling water. And this, coincidentally, is what I feel would be deserved punishment for smug elite tossers who are happy to tell inexperienced potential customers that their sub-23” board is “super-stable”.

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1037 on: March 27, 2019, 03:51:31 AM »
1) And many people (indeed, perhaps even most of the entire SUP-user population) are worse balance-wise than I am.

2) Some people’s balance abilities are simply extraordinary. And there are quite a few of them, and for obvious reasons they tend to be those who get asked to do reviews more often than the average SUPer. But they really have NO IDEA how bad the rest of us are, or that what they find so trivial is extremely difficult or totally impossible for the vast majority of people.

3) I *can* paddle a 21.5x14 but it is a horrible, and very slow, experience.

1) Try it when you've got my mass and centre of gravity ! I've no doubt that most racers have better balance than I do. It's mainly as I'm lazy at training it and partly as I'm pretty much four inches taller than everyone else I race against.

2) I agree. I got some offline stick from [brand not stated] recently over that review of the Lightsignature GT because they said they had better paddlers than me to do testing against that board. I agreed and told them that I doubted any of those was a scientist and without that training, they were kind of missing the point and the skillset needed. It's all relative.

3) It's funny you feel that way. I could paddle a 21.5 at full power but only on glassy flatwater (and not in a large mass start race). I suspect with your skills you'd adapt easily but you'd have to put some time in. Personally, I consider 23 inches is my reasonable limit. Anything narrower than that will require a large amount of time just being able to handle the board, let alone maximise your ability on it. That's where a paddler has to judge what is a step too far. Funnily enough, I'm going through this with surfski's at the moment.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 03:55:07 AM by ukgm »

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1038 on: March 27, 2019, 03:55:36 AM »
I have been at fault too - I have made MANY claims about stability of boards and surfskis.

It’s actually quite bizarre when you think about it, because I recall perfectly describing the stability of surfskis and SUP like this:
-   The Allstar 14x25 is an extremely stable platform.
-   The Nelo 560 is a very stable Elite surfski.
-   The Epic V10L will provide an amazing amount of stability.
There are no lies, and no trickery there. I will vouch a 1000 times over for the above statements, but these statements CANNOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.

The first line “The Allstar 14x25 is an extremely stable platform” should also be considered RELATIVE. It’s automatically assumed that anything under 34” is going to feel somewhat unstable for new-comers to the sport, especially if they are non-athletic, and / or weigh a bunch.

The second line “The Nelo 560 is a very stable Elite surfski” describes an Elite ski. Enough said there – it’s not an entry-level ski, and clearly meant as a statement for Elite paddlers that will find the 560 to be quite stable (compare to a V14 for instance).

The third line “The Epic V10L will provide an amazing amount of stability” also makes a reference to an Elite ski, but notice I didn’t include the words ELITE SKI. I didn’t try to trick anyone, but in my defense, it just didn’t even occur to me that a non-elite paddler would be looking at a V10L. The only thing I can say there is that, in my reviews, I have taken the time to compare the V10L with something like a Nelo 550, Nelo 560M, Epic V10, and Epic V14.


QUESTIONS
-   Were those statements taken out of context?
-   Did the reviewer (me, or anyone else) actually compare a surfski or a SUP board with similar crafts?
-   Did the reader READ the entire review?

Aren’t we all at fault here – because after all, someone did (very recently) have the “audacity” to claim that a 28” board would be stable?

FACTS
At the end of the day, I believe that a 27” board will feel instable to my mother (even though she is a total featherweight). I even believe strongly that a 28” board will feel terribly wobbly to a non-athletic 135 kilos male – especially if said individual isn’t too comfortable near a body a water.

Having said all of this, I still agree and believe that the SUP industry as a whole isn’t as honest as I’d like them to be. In fact, the only thing we can hope for in the future is for reviewers to back up every single one of their claims:

** A way stable board should be compared with other boards, and so should a way fast board, a well built board, a light board, unstable board, etc…**
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1039 on: March 27, 2019, 04:18:12 PM »
for me, the transition curve when going to skinny board or to a new toy was a shock to frustration, then to the neutral zone, then acceptance and then enthusiasm to a new beginning or take the wrong path and you have to sale that toy  :)

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1040 on: March 28, 2019, 04:42:09 AM »
For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.

Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1041 on: March 28, 2019, 06:29:00 AM »
For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.

Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."
:) :) That’s funny, but true. But it reflects the huge variety of experiences of paddlers. It’s pretty much hopeless asking someone else how stable a board is, really. We are all so different, and the conditions we paddle in, and the level of difficulty we will tolerate, are so varied.

I can now tell just by looking at a board whether it will provide the level of stability I require. It has taken 12 years of trying scores - maybe hundreds - of boards in a huge range of conditions to get to that point. And a lot of uncomfortable “reality checks” too, along the way. I don’t really see a way round that. Sometimes there is no substitute for hands-on experience, especially when it relates to self-knowledge.


ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1042 on: March 28, 2019, 07:24:47 AM »
For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.

Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."
:) :) That’s funny, but true. But it reflects the huge variety of experiences of paddlers. It’s pretty much hopeless asking someone else how stable a board is, really. We are all so different, and the conditions we paddle in, and the level of difficulty we will tolerate, are so varied.

I can now tell just by looking at a board whether it will provide the level of stability I require. It has taken 12 years of trying scores - maybe hundreds - of boards in a huge range of conditions to get to that point. And a lot of uncomfortable “reality checks” too, along the way. I don’t really see a way round that. Sometimes there is no substitute for hands-on experience, especially when it relates to self-knowledge.

I personally find that someone telling you what their previous board was prior to that one (and the volume/type of experience they have) is enough normally for me to work out whether a board should be on my demo list or not.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1043 on: March 28, 2019, 07:50:22 AM »
ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1044 on: March 28, 2019, 03:35:33 PM »
ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.
I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, we’ll never know that either  ;D

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1045 on: March 28, 2019, 03:49:39 PM »
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.

That's a tricky proposition though. The first part of this equation is whether you have good ability to asses your skills and be honest with your self rather than leave it to wishful thinking. It also requires
experimentation with various shapes and hone in on the set of features that work for you.

The second part could prove trickier as you need to find a good shaper who can translate your thoughts into your personal shape, something I found to be not so simple as many shapers have predetermine
mindset and always trying to inject their point of view which may not work for you. They also have to be really good craftsmen so they can build you a solid board that will be light as well.

It use to be easier back when it was just surfboards, simple and cheaper construction and by the 5th board you and the shaper are in sync. With sup it's different, by the 5th board you'll be
homeless and you'll need a board that can double as your home. If there was ever a good all-around shape, that would be it.
in progress...

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1046 on: March 28, 2019, 07:11:38 PM »
ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.
I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, we’ll never know that either  ;D
Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didn’t get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where I’d be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.

But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didn’t fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And that’s how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you can’t even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, you’ll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills aren’t going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1047 on: March 28, 2019, 07:36:49 PM »
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.

That's a tricky proposition though. The first part of this equation is whether you have good ability to asses your skills and be honest with your self rather than leave it to wishful thinking. It also requires
experimentation with various shapes and hone in on the set of features that work for you.

The second part could prove trickier as you need to find a good shaper who can translate your thoughts into your personal shape, something I found to be not so simple as many shapers have predetermine
mindset and always trying to inject their point of view which may not work for you. They also have to be really good craftsmen so they can build you a solid board that will be light as well.

It use to be easier back when it was just surfboards, simple and cheaper construction and by the 5th board you and the shaper are in sync. With sup it's different, by the 5th board you'll be
homeless and you'll need a board that can double as your home. If there was ever a good all-around shape, that would be it.
This is all true, and I’m just teasing the Strongman’s Daughter (aka ukgm) for his lack of commitment to what is his seventh sport or somesuch. I have been through this process and got the (downwind) board I wanted partly by paddling with the shaper so he knew exactly what conditions I was facing, and partly by owning every damn downwind board anyone could own and learning from the failings of each. The resulting design (for which I am claiming no credit) is very unlike anything you could buy off the shelf. More conventional though will be my next custom (I hope), which is kinda like a mix between the SIC RS and the Bark Vapor, but with a slightly different (and more effective in my conditions) nose, which underneath is more like that of a mix between the noses of the C4 Switchblade and the Angulo Shaka. It won’t be especially light because I don’t have problems carrying heavy boards, and I’d prefer a durable and super-stiff layup to a light and more fragile one. But it will be fast nevertheless, and tough, and optimised to flatter my (dis)abilities, and probably won’t cost more than one of those wobbly rolly Nelo boards that few can use. I’ve paddled a 12-6x24 version of the design and it goes like stink.

So yes, you have to put the hours in if you want to get a custom board that is truly customised to you, and works superbly for you. But it is possible, and it is worth it, IMO.

 

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1048 on: March 29, 2019, 01:14:00 AM »
ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.
I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, we’ll never know that either  ;D
Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didn’t get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where I’d be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.

But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didn’t fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And that’s how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you can’t even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, you’ll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills aren’t going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.

Personally, you should have done my event this weekend and kicked some wrinkly arse in your age group. We'll never know the result of that either. Nobody uses a narrow board past 50  ;D

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #1049 on: March 29, 2019, 03:53:44 AM »
Race last weekend? And miss all that glorious little surf in the sun?? There’s no number of wrinkly arses that would tempt me away from that, even though hanging around with a bunch of sweaty Lycra-clad men might be irresistible to you, and giving them a thrashing with your stiff missile even more so ;)

I’d rather be catching clean little offshore waves on my unlimited board instead, I’m afraid, hooting my friends’ great waves, saying hello to the curious seals, and revelling in the peaceful sunset, far away from the competitive demands of working life.

 


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