Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259522 times)

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #765 on: March 08, 2019, 02:41:55 AM »
My point was aimed at this one of yours:

“getting a typier craft / more performance”

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #766 on: March 08, 2019, 03:23:46 AM »
1) One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive.

2) And this annual design change has been driven in large part by the changing nature and format of races: different water conditions, distances, technical aspects etc.

3) If most racing had been 5k and conducted on boating lakes for example, we would by now pretty much have one design that everyone uses. Designs would have converged.

4) With the increasing influence of the ICF and the change of focus from coastal to inland paddling, together with aspirations for Olympics, I can envisage that SUP racing in 10 years is mainly flat water sprints or short distance conducted on rowing lakes/rivers.

5) Hollow boards will make a lot of sense then because you’ll spend a load of cash but then keep the board for much longer. No more ukgm updating his board every year


1) I think the main reason is actually a familiarity with foam materials by manufacturers (for the other watersports that they were doing prior to SUP).

2) The annual change probably wasn't the main need but its certainly been a happy bi-product for them. In many other sports, it was just a colourways change. The funny thing is, if you look at surf-ski's, they run on a 4-5 year cycle and it actually allows them to produce performance enhancing designs each time. Alternatively, most of us know that SUP on the other hand is an annual emperors new clothes thing. There have been some leaps forward but SUP should really be on a 2-3 year development cycle to really see value.

3) I agree but I think that's only because the kayak manufacturers would have got involved sooner. Racing on flatwater doesn't specifically warrant hollow construction per se'.

4) For the sports sake, I hope not. I suspect elite racing will shrink further though.

5) Absolutely true. However as far SUP racing goes, I think I'm done there anyway. Ironically, it was using the GT and looking back at my old gear that nailed the coffin for me. I'll always train on a race board but I've decided to move on to working on my ocean ski racing as frankly I enjoy it more at the moment and its been an itch I haven't made time to scratch since my surf-lifesaving days in the mid 90's. Next year I'm going for a national team place in the dragonboat squad.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 03:27:53 AM by ukgm »

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #767 on: March 08, 2019, 04:33:01 AM »
1) One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive.


1) I think the main reason is actually a familiarity with foam materials by manufacturers (for the other watersports that they were doing prior to SUP).

We probably have the surf industry to thank for in that regard. The resurrection of this sport
and the companies that followed suit were deeply rooted in surf where a 5 board quiver will
go unnoticed.

Not surprisingly, a lot of the once young surfers, are now middle-age+ suppers but are still
buying into that mentality, only now they have money to spend. And we all know that a new
board has the promise of youth :D

That's why I like the move by Nelo, maybe now it will be different as the hype of the industry
gone away and the cycle will slow down considerably. Naish and Bark were ahead of their time
but other players were eager to cash-in on the hype.

In that regard, Naish and Bark are still in that mind set: Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.

On the other hand the surf side is still a wild west 8)
in progress...

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #768 on: March 08, 2019, 05:07:10 AM »
Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.


If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #769 on: March 09, 2019, 02:23:40 AM »
Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.


If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
Well, Kai and Caspar are ocean and sprint specialists, so that might have something to do with it. Originally the Javelin was more of an ocean board than a flat water one, so when the Maliko came along and proved so popular it was always going to be tricky for an overwhelmingly ocean-based company to find a place for it. The Maliko, as the name suggests, was originally intended as a downwind board (it was originally the “Javelin Maliko”) because the missile-like Javelin had become a bit of a handful DW (albeit fast of you could cope with it). But the Maliko proved more versatile than that, and as one of the few low volume raceboards amongst a rapid outbreak of clogs and fat-lipped voluminous boards, it found its niche with the public as well as the Naish team-riders (especially the smaller ones).

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #770 on: March 09, 2019, 06:00:31 AM »
Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.


If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
Well, Kai and Caspar are ocean and sprint specialists, so that might have something to do with it. Originally the Javelin was more of an ocean board than a flat water one, so when the Maliko came along and proved so popular it was always going to be tricky for an overwhelmingly ocean-based company to find a place for it. The Maliko, as the name suggests, was originally intended as a downwind board (it was originally the “Javelin Maliko”) because the missile-like Javelin had become a bit of a handful DW (albeit fast of you could cope with it). But the Maliko proved more versatile than that, and as one of the few low volume raceboards amongst a rapid outbreak of clogs and fat-lipped voluminous boards, it found its niche with the public as well as the Naish team-riders (especially the smaller ones).

Now that you mentioned dugouts, Naish finally gave-in and will introduce their own for 2020. Didn't see it yet, one can only wonder...
in progress...

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #771 on: March 09, 2019, 12:15:56 PM »
Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.


If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
Well, Kai and Caspar are ocean and sprint specialists, so that might have something to do with it. Originally the Javelin was more of an ocean board than a flat water one, so when the Maliko came along and proved so popular it was always going to be tricky for an overwhelmingly ocean-based company to find a place for it. The Maliko, as the name suggests, was originally intended as a downwind board (it was originally the “Javelin Maliko”) because the missile-like Javelin had become a bit of a handful DW (albeit fast of you could cope with it). But the Maliko proved more versatile than that, and as one of the few low volume raceboards amongst a rapid outbreak of clogs and fat-lipped voluminous boards, it found its niche with the public as well as the Naish team-riders (especially the smaller ones).

It was always that way though with their riders (and they could have created a clearer sprint board replacement as Starboard had done). I was told though that they felt they could use the same board competitively at most events they did and sales of the sprint jav were not good (shifting them off our team was a nightmare).

I think Naish (as they often do) had their finger on the right pulse.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #772 on: March 09, 2019, 01:27:28 PM »
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasn’t more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term “Javelin” became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Jav’s “too tippy” reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably don’t really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word “Nelo” doesn’t also become a byword for “fast but too tippy”. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #773 on: March 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM »
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasn’t more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term “Javelin” became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Jav’s “too tippy” reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably don’t really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word “Nelo” doesn’t also become a byword for “fast but too tippy”. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Any one who read this thread already associates Nelo with tippy unless you happen to be 130lb ;)
in progress...

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #774 on: March 09, 2019, 03:37:46 PM »
You might be right. Certainly I look for the words “surprisingly stable” most of all of in a review. And big-selling boards like the All Star, Maliko, RS etc have all had reviews that have used those words right up front.

Don’t these look GREAT now? From 5 years ago...

https://youtu.be/v36BWp8rzKA

https://youtu.be/hM6U6GojogA

Very fast, very light, very versatile. But by the standards of the time, tippy. So they never really sold that many. I’d try one if they brought out a board like that now though! Bet it is faster than the Maliko... if you have the skills...

And the hollow version was tough and very light, and not fantastically more expensive than the ordinary carbon version. But it got a rep as a tippy board and that did for it, as Starboard wisely went for the “stable-for-it’s-width” approach, having been stung by criticism of a couple of it’s fast-but-tippy boards that remained on the shelves long after the season was over.

I was going to buy a SIC Bayonet. But the few reviews there are tend to mention polite versions of “its like standing on a log”. So I cancelled my order... wish they’d sunk the deck just a little.

But I think we’ve already established that Nelo aren’t going for volume sales. So best of luck to them. I’m bored with seeing all those dirty blue chipped Starboards on the race starting lines anyway. And when the pros fall in it makes me feel better about myself :)

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #775 on: March 10, 2019, 01:06:04 AM »
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasn’t more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term “Javelin” became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Jav’s “too tippy” reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably don’t really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word “Nelo” doesn’t also become a byword for “fast but too tippy”. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.

I remember testing both 2017 models in late 2016 as I had to choose one or the other. I felt the 2017 Javelin wasn't too bad at all for stability. There wasn't huge amounts in it between them (not enough for me to worry). However, everyone on the UK team went for the Maliko. Mainly as the terms of our team deals meant we had to personally sell the boards on at the end of each season before we'd be issued a new one and we knew that flooding the secondhand market with flatwater boards meant that would not end well for the riders. A wise move as it turned out as the model was cancelled a year later and the Maliko's remained generally easy to move on.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #776 on: March 10, 2019, 01:08:57 AM »
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasn’t more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term “Javelin” became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Jav’s “too tippy” reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably don’t really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word “Nelo” doesn’t also become a byword for “fast but too tippy”. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Any one who read this thread already associates Nelo with tippy unless you happen to be 130lb ;)

I don't think that is fair and it's not true. It's an assumption when you consider most people in the thread haven't paddled one. I can only comment on the GT but its 'reactive' not 'tippy'. I'm going to have a quick go on the 24.75 signature in 3 weeks time while i'm at a race. I'll report back on that one.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #777 on: March 10, 2019, 01:41:55 AM »
I suspect that you are right to describe it as “reactive” (without having tried the board), and that being substantially to do with the weight. But I don’t think that most people demoing the board will say, with a big grin of delight on their faces “wow, this board is lovely and reactive!” They’ll be thinking “wow, my legs are going to be jelly after only one mile”. But if you are a dedicated racer then you’ll put up with the challenge if your GPS says the speed is there - at least until you’ve lost a couple of podium places through exhaustion or falls - so it really may not matter at all. But as I’ve said many times before, it’s easy for a shaper to make a board that is fast when Bruno is on it. The difficult thing is to make a board that is fast with a lump like me on it. But the latter will sell and the former will not. So you are back to the same situation you described in your post about deciding whether to buy a Javelin or a Maliko when a Naish team rider. You end up being limited by others people’s shortcomings rather than your own, unless you have unlimited funds.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #778 on: March 10, 2019, 09:46:57 AM »
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.

I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 10:41:10 AM by burchas »
in progress...

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #779 on: March 10, 2019, 10:57:17 AM »
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.

I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.

How many of the light signature boards have you paddled so far ?

 


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