Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259539 times)

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #750 on: March 07, 2019, 10:30:44 AM »
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"

Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELO’s offering of custom color).

And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Don’t know if  Nelo can match that.

I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.

My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.

From everything I’ve seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If they’ll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.
in progress...

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #751 on: March 07, 2019, 12:10:19 PM »
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"

Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELO’s offering of custom color).

And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Don’t know if  Nelo can match that.

I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.

My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.

From everything I’ve seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If they’ll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.

I spoke with them about a more 'market friendly' size last week and they didn't seem that fussed at the time. They are very focused on the performance sizes at the moment. I find that surprising as I can't see there being the sales there to underpin the development and mould costs. Mind you, Nelo themselves have generally always been generally elite-centred by nature.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #752 on: March 07, 2019, 12:58:11 PM »
For my money, if you want an allwater board and don't want a barge, I'd actually pick that over an Allstar.

Any day, any time, with my eyes closed :-)
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #753 on: March 07, 2019, 05:43:59 PM »
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"

Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELO’s offering of custom color).

And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Don’t know if  Nelo can match that.

I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.

My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.

From everything I’ve seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If they’ll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.

I spoke with them about a more 'market friendly' size last week and they didn't seem that fussed at the time. They are very focused on the performance sizes at the moment. I find that surprising as I can't see there being the sales there to underpin the development and mould costs. Mind you, Nelo themselves have generally always been generally elite-centred by nature.

maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #754 on: March 07, 2019, 05:53:03 PM »
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"

Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELO’s offering of custom color).

And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Don’t know if  Nelo can match that.

I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.

My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.

From everything I’ve seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If they’ll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.

I spoke with them about a more 'market friendly' size last week and they didn't seem that fussed at the time. They are very focused on the performance sizes at the moment. I find that surprising as I can't see there being the sales there to underpin the development and mould costs. Mind you, Nelo themselves have generally always been generally elite-centred by nature.

maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?

I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.
in progress...

Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #755 on: March 07, 2019, 06:01:47 PM »
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?
I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.

Interesting. Just curious how many people would buy a bord - specially a new board - just based on the result of one elite racer.
Maybe if people see a lot of racers with a specific board a la Starboard (AllStar and Sprint), I can see that as some kind of normality or repeat message effect.
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
Blackfish Paddles

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #756 on: March 07, 2019, 06:28:23 PM »
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?
I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.

Interesting. Just curious how many people would buy a bord - specially a new board - just based on the result of one elite racer.
Maybe if people see a lot of racers with a specific board a la Starboard (AllStar and Sprint), I can see that as some kind of normality or repeat message effect.

If that one racer should clean up the all the major races it wouldn't be long before other racers
follow suit, once that happens... well, you how it works.
in progress...

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #757 on: March 07, 2019, 11:14:12 PM »
For my money, if you want an allwater board and don't want a barge, I'd actually pick that over an Allstar.

Any day, any time, with my eyes closed :-)
Yes, especially since the Maliko is cheaper (in Europe) yet better made (the 2018 model) than the All Star.

...would it be rude for me to say that I’d prefer a Maliko to this Nelo board? Maybe best of all would be a Maliko constructed like the Nelo.

In this way, it seems to me that the main selling point for the Nelo is the method of construction, not the design of the board. Would this board be as effective as ukgm claims if it were the same weight as eg. a Maliko or All Star?

As I’ve linked above, some SUP brands have already experimented with hollow construction. So maybe if the Nelo is successful, all that will happen is that the other brands will switch to similarly expensive construction methods, and everything will continue as it was before - except now all the boards are more expensive. Would that be progress?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 11:25:29 PM by Area 10 »

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #758 on: March 08, 2019, 12:01:46 AM »
1)Yes, especially since the Maliko is cheaper (in Europe) yet better made (the 2018 model) than the All Star.

2) In this way, it seems to me that the main selling point for the Nelo is the method of construction, not the design of the board.

3) Would this board be as effective as ukgm claims if it were the same weight as eg. a Maliko or All Star?

4) As I’ve linked above, some SUP brands have already experimented with hollow construction. So maybe if the Nelo is successful, all that will happen is that the other brands will switch to similarly expensive construction methods, and everything will continue as it was before - except now all the boards are more expensive. Would that be progress?

1) The 2018 Allstar's problem (and I can say this now as I've just sold mine), was that Starboard had gone with the paint that was integrated into the boards top coat. This saved a small amount of weight (and was addressing some of their eco-orientated beliefs) but has turned the board into a chip nightmare. It doesn't dent any easier than the previous models but the paint chips off like you wouldn't believe. I sold it while I could still break even from what I paid for it (ex team issue).

2) I have emphasised the build quality and weight as they are its main USP over other boards, not that its other aspects (such as design) were not good. The cockpit stance width was a really nice aspect for example.

3) I have got test data for the board too but having done this in winter, the quality of the data wasn't to my standards and I didn't share it publicly as a result. I can say that the natural convergence of board design is going to make most comparisons a wash really (let alone the confounding aspect of its weight reduction which can't be seperated out in the test results). Bottom line ? - I can't give you an answer but I thought it was on par design-wise for the kind of paddling I do.

4) What will happen is that the big brands would drop the price of the current construction a touch, charge more than they do now for the hollow boards and it won't be a win for us. I see this happen in other sports technology products all the time as a strategy.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #759 on: March 08, 2019, 12:04:08 AM »
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?
I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.

Interesting. Just curious how many people would buy a bord - specially a new board - just based on the result of one elite racer.
Maybe if people see a lot of racers with a specific board a la Starboard (AllStar and Sprint), I can see that as some kind of normality or repeat message effect.

If that one racer should clean up the all the major races it wouldn't be long before other racers
follow suit, once that happens... well, you how it works.

I suspect it won't be a major shift in results. However, purely from a marketing point of view some brands may well want to cover the tack if it does even as well as he normally does.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #760 on: March 08, 2019, 01:17:53 AM »
Strangely enough, I was under the impression that many of us were competing against ourselves and always trying to push ourselves a little further.

If you are currently doing well and super comfortable on a say 26” board, and you want to go a little faster, it would make sense to make a small leap to a 25" board - any board that suits your needs.

No one is asking or telling you that you should go from a 26" board to a 21". However, if your are seeking faster speeds, for personal reasons and or for racing, the first logical thing will be to work on technique, and immediately there after work on getting a more ‘advanced’ board.

Perhaps we should remember that as long as you make minor changes in stability, you will adapt (minor is the keyword though). Alternatively, and really the worst thing is that you would be falling in the water (god forbids), but aside from your ego, you’ll be fine.

Racers need technique, but there’s a real emphasis on stability for them... as long as they want to go faster. Racers must also keep in mind that they will adapt.

To many people, what has really worked is:
- working on technique
- getting a smaller surface for their paddle
- getting a typier craft / more performance
- adapting by getting to know their craft in various conditions
- never be afraid of falling into the water - in fact, practice often

Where does Nelo fit in all of this?
They are adding a healthy dose of competition. It may very well be that once you see a ‘different’ built quality from Nelo, customers may just demand changes to the absurdy of Styrofoam constructions. Your favorite company/shape may prove to go hollow in the next couple of years.

Bashing Nelo for currently shaming your favorite brand is cool, but makes no sense what so ever... especially when you may just gain from Nelo’s current efforts in the very near future.

In the meantime, Nelo choices are somewhat limited... even if there are currently 3 sizes available, and many more on the way.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #761 on: March 08, 2019, 01:20:38 AM »
One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive. And this annual design change has been driven in large part by the changing nature and format of races: different water conditions, distances, technical aspects etc. If most racing had been 5k and conducted on boating lakes for example, we would by now pretty much have one design that everyone uses. Designs would have converged. With the increasing influence of the ICF and the change of focus from coastal to inland paddling, together with aspirations for Olympics, I can envisage that SUP racing in 10 years is mainly flat water sprints or short distance conducted on rowing lakes/rivers. Hollow boards will make a lot of sense then because you’ll spend a load of cash but then keep the board for much longer. No more ukgm updating his board every year, and Starboard producing foam boards that fall apart while just sitting on a roof rack (in my experience only, no doubt :) ) That might be better for the environment in the long run than any initiative by board brands at the moment?

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #762 on: March 08, 2019, 01:29:55 AM »
One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive. And this annual design change has been driven in large part by the changing nature and format of races: different water conditions, distances, technical aspects etc. If most racing had been 5k and conducted on boating lakes for example, we would by now pretty much have one design that everyone uses. Designs would have converged. With the increasing influence of the ICF and the change of focus from coastal to inland paddling, together with aspirations for Olympics, I can envisage that SUP racing in 10 years is mainly flat water sprints or short distance conducted on rowing lakes/rivers. Hollow boards will make a lot of sense then because you’ll spend a load of cash but then keep the board for much longer. No more ukgm updating his board every year, and Starboard producing foam boards that fall apart while just sitting on a roof rack (in my experience only, no doubt :) ) That might be better for the environment in the long run than any initiative by board brands at the moment?

I don’t really with all of this, mainly because of what happened in the surfski world. We made our skis out of clark foam for testing purposes, but nearly every single ski came out of a mold since the mid 80’s.

Meanwhile, we do not seek flat water racing... not when you are on a ski. Surfskis seek open water, using a hollow construction that has proven 3 to 5 times more durable than conventional chinese foam boards.

The SUP industry is like the shampoo industry:
Use twice as much by "wash your hair, rinse, REPEAT”
(Probably a lot to do with the windsurfing era of changing designs every year)
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #763 on: March 08, 2019, 01:49:41 AM »
photofr- no-one is “bashing” Nelo. There’s 50 pages of interest here! But we are entitled to ask what benefits and drawbacks this new market development brings. It’s not all going to be positive: nothing in life is that simple.

And since you have a very small frame, you probably find it hard to appreciate the degree to which stability IS speed for most paddlers, since virtually any production board will feel stable to you.

Elite paddlers are by their nature unusual. There’s not a lot the average person can conclude from their performances in terms of personal relevance. But one thing I can say with all certainty is that if you want to improve your speeds, concentrating on fitness and training will yield massively more returns than dropping one inch in board width. Indeed, I’ve seen many people drop width and actually go slower as a result. Indeed, that’s true of me: I’m actually faster on a SIC X14 14x28.5” than I was on my Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder 14x23 or Starboard Ace 14x25! The “get a more technical board and you’ll go faster” mantra is of dubious value for the average paddler, and is mainly intended by board brands to get us to buy new stuff. Most people commit to the expense of a new board as one indicator for their simultaneous commitment to more determined training. So it’s very hard to disentangle what improvement is due to the board and what is due to training.

As someone who has owned more boards than anyone else I know, I can tell you that changing boards makes disappointingly little difference to your speed, once you have reached a plateau. What a new board can do for you however is to make achieving your best more comfortable and consistent.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #764 on: March 08, 2019, 01:58:46 AM »
You should simply re-read my post.
I am the last person who would tell anyone that going from a 28" to a 23" is a good idea.

In fact, here is a simple copy-paste (notice the keyword? Notice the order of importance?)

Perhaps we should remember that as long as you make minor changes in stability, you will adapt (minor is the keyword though). Alternatively, and really the worst thing is that you would be falling in the water (god forbids), but aside from your ego, you’ll be fine.

Racers need technique, but there’s a real emphasis on stability for them... as long as they want to go faster. Racers must also keep in mind that they will adapt.

To many people, what has really worked is:
- working on technique
- getting a smaller surface for their paddle
- getting a typier craft / more performance
- adapting by getting to know their craft in various conditions
- never be afraid of falling into the water - in fact, practice often
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

 


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