Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259458 times)

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #255 on: April 17, 2018, 11:55:19 PM »
ukgm - I don’t think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. It’s an addiction, of sorts.


I'm not so sure as far as SUP goes at the moment. I think a lot of it depends on the paddlers background. Chatting to friends, I've found those from more of a lifestyle background are satisfied once they have a board at least the same as everyone else's. Its only those I find that have come in from technologically sensitive sports like triathlon that seem to be more pushy for the extreme. That all said, I have seen plenty of people pushing for what they feel gives them faster qualities, (such as narrower widths) until they go too far. Last weeks Head of the Dart race here was very interesting to see the trends.

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #256 on: April 18, 2018, 12:00:36 AM »

** I expected the Nelo board to be something like 5000 euros - so needless to say, when I figured out that it was about the same price as other top boards, it was a "no-brainer". To each his own though.

Well, you know what they say, you charge the maximum you think your market will pay. Starboard are already too expensive. If i can go out and buy a brand new V10 design surfski (that has only just come to market and has its own R&D to recoup) for 25% less than this board costs, Light signature are charging too much. I do agree with your bullet points though. The key thing for me are two you missed and these were:

a) Potential resale depreciation rate (I think this will struggle as nobody knows what it is)
b) Is it actually faster )nobody knows yet and no data has been presented.

I can live with a) being poor provided b) is true. I'm hoping to get on one of these boards shortly. However, my gut is telling me to wait for their allwater design first. I think that will be more raceable.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #257 on: April 18, 2018, 12:29:28 AM »
ukgm - I don’t think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. It’s an addiction, of sorts.


I'm not so sure as far as SUP goes at the moment. I think a lot of it depends on the paddlers background. Chatting to friends, I've found those from more of a lifestyle background are satisfied once they have a board at least the same as everyone else's. Its only those I find that have come in from technologically sensitive sports like triathlon that seem to be more pushy for the extreme. That all said, I have seen plenty of people pushing for what they feel gives them faster qualities, (such as narrower widths) until they go too far. Last weeks Head of the Dart race here was very interesting to see the trends.
If you’d have been racing in the UK since the first days I think you’d have a different perspective. This is because of two factors. The first is that the only game in town in the UK is right now Starborg, pretty much. It wasn’t always like that. Starborg’s current dominance has lowered expectations and desire to experiment. In the UK, if you mention racing, everyone just thinks that means “buy an All Star (middle pack) or Sprint (race leaders). It’s almost like calling a vacuum cleaner a Hoover. Paddlers have given up trying anything else - which is also because of the failings of most of the other brands, several of whom have produced boards with major flaws, or that aren’t suited to the usual rather dull UK race formats and crappy weather (to match the failings of several Starborgs along the way).

The second factor is the dominance of sponsored riders in the UK. Sometimes it feels like there are more sponsored riders than non-sponsored ones at a UK race. Sponsored riders paddle whatever they are given, rather than experiment to find the best board. This again has limited the scope and evolution of board designs and choices.

If we had another player on the market that provided a genuine alternative to Starborg, and was built better and at a reasonable price, this would cause a stampede of people broadening their horizons. In the early days all manner of brands, shapes and lengths were used and experimented with, and people would try anything to get an advantage. It could be like that again, especially if the race regulations and brand distribution networks hadn’t ossified the sport. If Nelo can successfully bring totally new thinking and construction to SUP then it will make people once again wonder what is possible, and “believe in more”.

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #258 on: April 18, 2018, 04:59:22 AM »
1) Paddlers have given up trying anything else - which is also because of the failings of most of the other brands, several of whom have produced boards with major flaws, or that aren’t suited to the usual rather dull UK race formats and crappy weather.

2) The second factor is the dominance of sponsored riders in the UK. Sometimes it feels like there are more sponsored riders than non-sponsored ones at a UK race. Sponsored riders paddle whatever they are given, rather than experiment to find the best board. This again has limited the scope and evolution of board designs and choices.

3)  If Nelo can successfully bring totally new thinking and construction to SUP then it will make people once again wonder what is possible, and “believe in more”.

1) I'm not sure that's true. The blame isn't on the paddlers - its on the brands. I could get on the phone now and demo a Starboard or a Naish locally within hours. Most other brands though have a crappy or non-existent demo system where you can't try what you want very easily and I'm of the mindset that if I can't try it easily, I won't buy it. If others feel the same, they'll buy what everyone else has and in most cases, that's an Allstar (although I saw a surprising increase in people with a Sprint last weekend). You can't blame Starboard for getting it right (or being able to afford to saturate the market).

2) This also is no longer true. As far as the UK goes in 2018, I know that Starboard, Naish and Mistral have all drastically cut their teams back to barely anything. They've realised that the return wasn't very good for the investment. Likewise quite a few paddlers have realised that it might be better for them to buy their own boards and ride what they like rather than being pushed to get a new one every year whether they want it or not.

3) I hope so. Coincidentally, I've just this minute been shown pictures of the Nelo 2.0 board. I'm very interested in that. The allwater board will likely be of even greater interest to me. I'm yet to be convinced that the market will be easily persuaded to move from foam blocks to hollow construction though. They are going to make a big push at the ICF worlds though and the european paddlers more familiar with Nelo in particular may be liable to be more interested.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:49:40 AM by ukgm »

SupSimcoe

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #259 on: April 18, 2018, 05:06:32 AM »
Where are the pics of the 2.0 board?
SUP Lake Simcoe
Clearwood VLZ 14*23 hollow wood- self-built
Starboard 2021 Sprint 14*19.75
Kenalu Mana 82
Quickblade UV 82 Carbon
SUP Reviews  http://simcoesup.blogspot.ca/

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #260 on: April 18, 2018, 05:39:06 AM »
Where are the pics of the 2.0 board?

I'm not in a position where I can share them but apparently it launches officially this weekend. They'll have it on their website and social media. The original design has had some worthwhile tweaks it looks like.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #261 on: April 18, 2018, 11:09:20 PM »
Here’s the very first flat water TEST result for the Nelo board - from yesterday, April 18th.

Rider: about 60 kilos
Age: 50.0 (it was my Birthday)
Shape: getting back into shape, usually middle of the pack, or only slightly better
Board compared: Nelo 14x23 (under 9 kilos) - Ace 14x25 (almost 14 kilos)
Note: This is a loop I have paddled over 40 times on the Ace.
Conditions: Near-perfect, nearly dead flat.

I started a little slow getting a feel for it all, and definitely not planning to hurt myself. After merely 1km, I started to focus more on gliding with the Nelo board. Glancing at my GPS, I saw speeds that were constantly over 1.5 km/h or more FASTER than my Ace.

Mind you, I have done this 15 km loops more than 40 times, and yesterday, the loop started at the slowest of strokes.

Don’t take this at heart, but please understand that when I came to shore, and saw that the end resulted was a total average speed of 1.2 km/h, I was blown away. Of course it was going to be faster... heck, my 14x23 Sprint was faster than my 14x25 Ace... but my point here is that my 14x23 Sprint was NEVER 1.2 km/h Faster!

Clearly, my legs got a workout... but that’s me needing to get into shape anyway - so it’s all good.

I want to make it clear that I wasn’t paddling at full speed - far from 100%. I finished the loop no more and no less tired than after the many times I have done this exact same loop with the Ace... the same boring loop.

What’s even more interesting to me is that based on my previous experience, I will only become faster on this new board - as with every single narrower board I have owned in the past.

Even more interesting: I knew that the Nelo was going to be faster, but I was willing to say a 0.3 or max a 0.5 km/h difference... grand max. Getting 1.2 km/h faster is unmatched on any tests I have ever conducted on a SUP.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #262 on: April 19, 2018, 12:00:22 AM »
Here’s the very first flat water TEST result for the Nelo board - from yesterday, April 18th.

Rider: about 60 kilos
Age: 50.0 (it was my Birthday)
Shape: getting back into shape, usually middle of the pack, or only slightly better
Board compared: Nelo 14x23 (under 9 kilos) - Ace 14x25 (almost 14 kilos)
Note: This is a loop I have paddled over 40 times on the Ace.
Conditions: Near-perfect, nearly dead flat.

I started a little slow getting a feel for it all, and definitely not planning to hurt myself. After merely 1km, I started to focus more on gliding with the Nelo board. Glancing at my GPS, I saw speeds that were constantly over 1.5 km/h or more FASTER than my Ace.

Mind you, I have done this 15 km loops more than 40 times, and yesterday, the loop started at the slowest of strokes.

Don’t take this at heart, but please understand that when I came to shore, and saw that the end resulted was a total average speed of 1.2 km/h, I was blown away. Of course it was going to be faster... heck, my 14x23 Sprint was faster than my 14x25 Ace... but my point here is that my 14x23 Sprint was NEVER 1.2 km/h Faster!

Clearly, my legs got a workout... but that’s me needing to get into shape anyway - so it’s all good.

I want to make it clear that I wasn’t paddling at full speed - far from 100%. I finished the loop no more and no less tired than after the many times I have done this exact same loop with the Ace... the same boring loop.

What’s even more interesting to me is that based on my previous experience, I will only become faster on this new board - as with every single narrower board I have owned in the past.

Even more interesting: I knew that the Nelo was going to be faster, but I was willing to say a 0.3 or max a 0.5 km/h difference... grand max. Getting 1.2 km/h faster is unmatched on any tests I have ever conducted on a SUP.

If you get the chance again, perform the tests over shorter distances but with repeated runs (at least 4-5). 3-400m will do it. Try and fix your effort by setting a fixed stroke rate. That will reduce some of the error and placebo out of any testing. Based on the basic principles of what we know about hydrodynamics, I would be extremely suspicious about a 1.2kph gain - particularly when none of their team riders have shown such unusual gains when racing on this board.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #263 on: April 19, 2018, 12:40:46 AM »
Interesting. But why compare it to an Ace? The Ace is not a flat water board. You need to run the comparison against a cutting bow board. What you’ve done is the equivalent to comparing the speed of a 2-seat Ferrari to a off-road 4x4 on a smooth racetrack.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #264 on: April 19, 2018, 01:12:48 AM »
Interesting. But why compare it to an Ace? The Ace is not a flat water board. You need to run the comparison against a cutting bow board. What you’ve done is the equivalent to comparing the speed of a 2-seat Ferrari to a off-road 4x4 on a smooth racetrack.

Indeed... however, read between the lines.
On an extensive test, based on 2 x 1000 meter runs, with a total of 6 boards and 6 people, we performed a grand total of 12 runs. Based on those short distances, we ALL found that the Ace was quite capable - even against the Sprint 14x23.

It’s an entire different game when you compare the Ace 14x25 on longer distances.

Here’s my belief:
People who regularly paddle with me will now have a really hard time keeping up with the Nelo, where I was smongst the top three of the group before.

Lots of people will benefit from the new Nelo board, ON THE FLATS, big or small, but the lighter and agile paddlers having zero balance issues will benefit most.

To this day, and as far as I know, no lighter paddler is using the new Nelo board to give a comparative on typical races.

There is nothing complete about what I did - but I have zero doubt now that this board is by far faster with me on it.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #265 on: April 19, 2018, 01:17:22 AM »
Based on my GPS data of my Ul 17.6x23 on flat water, used on 1000’s of kilometers, my numbers show that the Nelo board is very close to the speed and glide of that UL.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #266 on: April 19, 2018, 01:49:34 AM »
Based on my GPS data of my Ul 17.6x23 on flat water, used on 1000’s of kilometers, my numbers show that the Nelo board is very close to the speed and glide of that UL.

I can't dispute that but without some level of controls put in place with your testing (or knowing the +/- error), it could just have easily be consistent bias or a large error range meaning it isn't statistically significant. For example, I've been setting PB's all winter long on a board time-wise but once I'd looked in more detail and worked out any error, it turned out that much of this could be attributed to the effects of weather and different training I'd been doing. Having one set control (i.e. speed) isn't enough. You need at least two. If your fitness has changed, this could affect the results just as easily (or it could be a combination of a lot of factors). However, this probably isn't relevant to you since if you think its faster (and some speed indicates a gain), it probably is. I don't doubt you are faster on this board but I'd be surprised about some of the margins you're suggesting.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 01:51:29 AM by ukgm »

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #267 on: April 19, 2018, 02:36:27 AM »
Photofr- the only way you are going to convince us is to do a properly designed comparison trial. Either ukgm or I would be happy to design such a trial for you, and do the statistical analysis. I would insist on having more than one paddler, but ukgm is more lax about these things :)

The problem is that your claims sound too good to be true. And you haven’t provided us with convincing data yet. For instance, with the comparison with your UL, it is likely that at only 60kg you are a bit light for an UL board that big. Plenty of women paddlers I know weigh more than you, and they find themselves really struggling on a UL. UL boards are only fast if you have the grunt to take advantage of the extra waterlength. If you haven’t then you are just pushing more board than you need. If you put ukgm on the Nelo and your UL I have little doubt that no matter how good the Nelo is, he’d be faster on the UL (and probably find the paddling experience much more pleasurable).

So I think that you are either going to have to do a properly-designed and implemented trial, or you are just going to face a wall of scepticism that you are going to find frustrating. I hope you follow the former course, and I’m sure we’d be happy to help you with it.

My guess would be that the Nelo is about 0.3 kph faster on average in pure flat water than a 14x23 Starboard Sprint, with a fit 80kg paddler on board, but that advantage would disappear if the water got choppy or if the course had lots of buoy turns. That’s still a very useful advantage, if the Nelo doesn’t lose too much to more “compromise designs” (like the Sprint) in real-world race conditions. Otherwise it will just join the pantheon of “fast in a straight line on a rowing lake” designs that have appeared over the last 12 years or so, and have left the stage unloved, because races the world over are not like that.





SupSimcoe

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #268 on: April 19, 2018, 03:45:32 AM »
It seems like we are taking this a little to far. I think it is nice for a member to review a board and give their feedback and experience. If it is much faster for them then it may be that it is just much faster for them. I know that I am quite a bit faster on a 25 inch wide board and if I went down to 23 and was on flat water I would most likely be even faster if I stay out of the water.

if this member wants to do more scientific tests then it would be great but do not attack them for not doing so. Remember that the reason we put so much into these pieces of carbon is to get out on the water and have a good time while getting in very good shape.
SUP Lake Simcoe
Clearwood VLZ 14*23 hollow wood- self-built
Starboard 2021 Sprint 14*19.75
Kenalu Mana 82
Quickblade UV 82 Carbon
SUP Reviews  http://simcoesup.blogspot.ca/

yugi

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #269 on: April 19, 2018, 03:58:29 AM »
I believe the how you fare in a regular group is a better measure then trying to time a few laps. Regular outings with know partners will iron out the differences in conditions and variances in our own output.

Our variance in laps is far too subjective and bound to be affected by our knowledge of what board we are on.

So I look forward to hear from photofr after a few weeks of group outings.

Glad you're happy with your board photofr. Would like to hear your thoughts on comparison with a Starby Sprint or NSP Ninja when you get the opportibity to jump on one.

 


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