Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259565 times)

Larry Allison

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #180 on: February 25, 2018, 04:17:45 PM »
Have not been here for awhile because alot of you know pretty good about fins that I taught you. But it seems people after time loose there way sort a speak, no disrespect. But while everyone is talking about fin shapes and what is right and what is wrong. The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin! That is why it drives me crazy that people talk about my Ventral fin Concept when they never used it or they tried a version from someone else where the Fin Box was in the wrong place and didn't follow my instructions with the wrong fin. What I will say about this board company Nelo, they are the first to understand fin box place judging by where I see their fin box placed. Which means if you run a fin with a short core length and shallow with less surface area, you will burn out and spend more time in the water if you are not paddling in a Lagoon. Pretty simple fins have a purpose to balance of steering a board. As the boards become Higher volume and sit higher on water the fin will become a KEY piece and not a single fin because unless you are a balance champ then fighting a PIVOT POINT which is a single fin is a whole other issue.

 Infinity may have installed my ventral fin improperly, can’t claim to have ever measured it. Perhaps they did and there are only pros to using one. I experienced both pros and cons.

You are right early on some of the Customs were done wrong. The production  boards of today are right. 20" forward of the balance point of the board to the back of the Ventral box. Mahalo, for sharing.
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burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #181 on: February 25, 2018, 06:17:40 PM »
The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin!

Need to squeeze Burchas for the details:

I experienced it first hand with my new board! Fin box placement is radically different from all the other boards I have that none of my fins worked for me, and if you know me
you know I have a lot of those.

I'm specifically referring to downwind conditions, it really sucked for me with the new board and I wasn't having fun, I kept missing bumps and
connections and I felt my timing is really screwed up, so much that I could no longer blame my mediocre technic and conditioning.

Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his other
fins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about. I'll let the results speak:

I did the same run day after day. about 5.7 mile, shallow water bay conditions with very choppy crossed-up sections, average 15 knots wind.
Attached 2 screenshots from the Garmin for comparison... Draw your own conclusions, I'll just say that the other fin was the Spartan, which was my go to fin for these conditions.

Here is a video of the day with the GTX. I won't include the video from the day with the Spartan  because it involves a lot of profanity caught on camera.

https://youtu.be/boN5djsEzkY
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 06:20:47 PM by burchas »
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Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #182 on: February 25, 2018, 06:44:35 PM »
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his otherfins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about.

I want to be bored with the details and all the reasoning behind the design of the fin and the intended purpose. I love that kind of rationale.
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burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #183 on: February 25, 2018, 09:38:14 PM »
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his otherfins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about.

I want to be bored with the details and all the reasoning behind the design of the fin and the intended purpose. I love that kind of rationale.

I went about it the same way I did my my all-water ocean board. I needed an ocean fin that complements my shortcomings, if I'm not having fun I'm less motivated to make progress.
I tried just about any fin I thought would fit the bill (and even some I didn't), I narrowed it down to 3 fins that kind of had something going for them but just wasn't right:

1) GT Moray 8.5" deep 6.5" base - I could work with it if conditions was really lined-up but but at 39sqi felt under finned and too loose to control off the tail.
2) Ninja 10" deep 9" Base 54sqi - Felt great on lively ocean but in downwind conditions felt over finned and too much direction, the board wasn't responsive enough
3) Spartan 7.5" deep 7.75" base 50sqi - Didn't have enough roll resistance in lively water but have much better control off the tail

My thought was to build on the base of the Ninja but take it a little further at 10.5" base in order to compensate for bad timing
Then have little more thicker transition area going to the bottom end where I felt that 8.5" with the extra surface area and the
added flex profile would be deep enough to mitigate the roll and finally take the leading edge of the Spartan which is slightly
more upright for better surf feel.

As of yet, I have not had the chance to test it on lively atlantic ocean downwind conditions, but from the miles I've put on it, I can tell it's
a big improvement over any other fin I've tested for general ocean usage, I'll have my final answer when South Florida decides to grace
me with a right wind direction for doing an ocean run, unfortunately it's not a common phenomenon down here, so who knows when that might happen.

That's about as long as I can do in one go without boring my self and lose the line of thought ;)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 09:44:34 PM by burchas »
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Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #184 on: February 25, 2018, 10:12:35 PM »
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.
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Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #185 on: February 25, 2018, 10:19:21 PM »
Good to know that the moray is not enough or the tail of the 16. It was working ood with your malimo rental in the gorge
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ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #186 on: February 25, 2018, 11:26:56 PM »
The Nelo panel vee at the tail should provide some stability but the fin box looks well forward so that may affect straight line speed.  It does look to uave a nice high quality finish to the board like the Think.  Will be interesting to get your feedback ukgm after you put it through some tests.  Bit off topic but have you had a chance to do any multi-fin tests with your All Star?  You should be in a very good position to compare the 2 boards like proper soon enough.

Yep, it's been a question of weather. Until things calm down and I get stable and low wind from the west, I can't test (that's to do with providing stable conditions at my test venue). I've done lots of informal time time trials but it's just the drag test data I now need to complete my thoughts on the subject.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2018, 02:17:44 AM »
All the Larry Allison fins I’ve seen (except the Aercor) have too big a base for paddling in my local conditions. Wide base fins make quartering wind, current, and swell difficult. And we have a lot of that round here.

You can’t beat a nice 10” Squirrel cutaway fin (or a FCS Fat Boy) in those conditions IMO. And I’m not the only one who thinks this:

http://www.longboardhouse.com/Longboard-House--Squirrel-Cutaway-Fin-8-9_p_604.html

But we’ve done this one to death a thousand times, and talking about DW/ocean fins is drifting away from the topic of this thread quite a bit.

So, returning (slightly) to the topic, the K15 was the first rounded hull concept flat water SUP to be sold widely. That board had a tiny area narrow based fin. In fact it had a stupidly small fin box on it that people used to complain about because none of their fins would fit. A few locally had a new 10” finbox fitted so they could use a bigger area fin to dampen the inherent rolliness of the rounded (convex) hull design. 

But the designer, Jim Drake, knew a thing or two about the dynamics of flow, so this is worth bearing in mind when thinking about fins on the lightcorp/Nelo. IMO some people can cope with roll well, and even quite like it (like Travis Grant). But some find it very hard to deal with. If you are in the latter category then I don’t think that adding mega-finage to the board is ever going to help you overcome that handling characteristic enough, but what it will probably do is ruin the purity of the design.

With talk of 500m sprints in flat water run by a Canoe federation, boards built by canoeists and rounded hull boards, we are of course taking a big step towards what Jim Terrell warned us about a long time ago:

http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/

But SUP has shifted since then. It has become such a broad church that divisions seem almost inevitable. So maybe it is important for the development of SUP that there is a faction that goes towards something that looks more like Olympic Sprint Canoe standing up. Maybe then those people will drop a knee and revive Olympic Sprint Canoe, because heaven only knows that’s dying off.

Then there will be total coherence in that realm: boards that look like canoes, built by people who make canoes, used in races that are run by canoeists, using formats similar to Canoe competition formats.

In this way, in time, this thread could come to have significance for the development of SUP as a competitive sport. We’ll be looking back on it and saying “this was the turning point: the point where SUPs built by Canoe/surfski builders started to be bought by average Joe consumers, and (fairly) ordinary racers started to express an interest in Olympic Canoe type event formats”.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 02:20:00 AM by Area 10 »

mr_proper

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2018, 02:37:45 AM »
If you are in the latter category then I don’t think that adding mega-finage to the board is ever going to help you overcome that handling characteristic enough, but what it will probably do is ruin the purity of the design.

I have no idea about Finns and paddle on every board only the serial fin. One time I mounted a larger fin (Future Fin Triangle Cutaway Medium) at a 14x23 Sprint (2016) and for me the board worked not really good. Primary stability might have been a little better, but secondary stability made it too sluggish. I then switched back to the serial fin.
The LightCorp Fin is ok, but it's a little bit heavy. They work on a lighter version.
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ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2018, 03:52:37 AM »

With talk of 500m sprints in flat water run by a Canoe federation, boards built by canoeists and rounded hull boards, we are of course taking a big step towards what Jim Terrell warned us about a long time ago:

http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/

But SUP has shifted since then. It has become such a broad church that divisions seem almost inevitable. So maybe it is important for the development of SUP that there is a faction that goes towards something that looks more like Olympic Sprint Canoe standing up.

Then there will be total coherence in that realm: boards that look like canoes, built by people who make canoes, used in races that are run by canoeists, using formats similar to Canoe competition formats.


Scratch what I said. I've now found out this morning that I may well have got this all wrong and the formats may well be to everyone's liking. I'll know more soon. Or to put it another way, have a look at this:

https://www.canoeicf.com/stand-up-paddling-world-championships/esposende-viana-do-castelo-2018

..... then cross check with what other ICF sanctioned events happen to be on in Portugal on those particular dates..............
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 04:09:14 AM by ukgm »

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #190 on: February 26, 2018, 04:45:56 AM »
Is this, is it?

http://www.icfsup2018.com/new/race_info/?tab=3

200m sprint, a beach race, and a distance ocean downwinder.

I’m sorry for you. And for Nelo, because this format (excepting maybe the sprint) is hardly going to suit the owners of board we are frothing over in this thread.

Basically, the ICF have copied the ISA format wholesale, right?

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Equal prize money for men and women. So get your hula skirt on ukgm, and you might just win 250 euros :) (Well, in the sprint, anyway, maybe.)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 04:53:27 AM by Area 10 »

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #191 on: February 26, 2018, 04:48:40 AM »
Is this, is it?

http://www.icfsup2018.com/new/race_info/?tab=3

200m sprint, a beach race, and a distance ocean downwinder.

I’m sorry for you. And for Nelo, because this format (excepting maybe the sprint) is hardly going to suit the owners of board we are frothing over in this thread.

Basically, the ICF have copied the ISA format wholesale, right?

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Looks that way. They'll bolt it onto the longstanding Summer challenge......... sponsored by Nelo ;-)

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #192 on: February 26, 2018, 04:50:40 AM »
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Maybe this one? http://www.light-sup.com/light-brushed-carbon-touring-race.html
But I think, it's not a Allwater.
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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #193 on: February 26, 2018, 04:55:12 AM »

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)


You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 04:57:41 AM by ukgm »

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #194 on: February 26, 2018, 04:58:50 AM »
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Maybe this one? http://www.light-sup.com/light-brushed-carbon-touring-race.html
But I think, it's not a Allwater.
Nice looking board. But the weight, construction and cost means it looks pretty much a direct competitor of the All Star, SIC RS etc. Good luck with that, Lightsup..
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:10:12 AM by Area 10 »

 


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