Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259567 times)

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2018, 12:04:48 AM »
@UKGM

Why?
Do you feel like the Nelo 14x23" doesn't have enough primary stability?
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2018, 12:20:55 AM »
@UKGM

Why?
Do you feel like the Nelo 14x23" doesn't have enough primary stability?

I believe so. The problem was that I've made that assumption based on videos I've seen plus one paddler I know who has one using (all in lieu of me not being able to access one to try it myself). That's not a great way to forumlate an opinion. If the 24.75 (which is more my volume) is workable for me, I'd race one tomorrow - that's how strongly I feel about the concept.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2018, 12:51:33 AM »
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.
Yes, this it it. You have to have raceboards designed by people who actually race, not who just paddle fast.

When we see Nelo shapers actually paddling in races (eg. like Mark Rasphorst and several other shapers), then I think that confidence will spread. Most flat water races are probably not decided by pure flat water speed any more, but that’s where designers who don’t race would naturally put their focus.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2018, 12:54:53 AM »
Heck, I haven't tried one, and I too feel like it could use a little bit of love regarding primary stability.

In the World of SURFSKI, we refer and compare PRIMARY and SECONDARY stability. In SUP, this translates with two boards that come to mind: the Allstar and the Ace (both 14x25)

The Allstar has tons of primary stability: you stand on it and it feels rock solid under your feet. Start tilting the board a bunch and you feel secondary stability - although about "average" on the Allstar.

The Ace: comparatively speaking to the above board, the Ace has a whole lot less primary stability. However, with its huge sidewalls, the Ace has far better secondary stability.

Judging from images and videos that I see regarding the Nelo board, my best guess is that the larger Nelo board will probably have less primary stability than the Ace.

WHY?
Another guess here, but probably worth mentioning that the Nelo board is built by Nelo with Nelo's nearly unparalleled construction methods. However, the R&D isn't Nelo. Perhaps it was Nelo's way to test the SUP World... ?

BETTER?
I would much prefer see a Nelo conception regarding the design - and perhaps we will see that in the near future. With a lot of certainty, and based on Nelo's current concepts regarding amazing water crafts, we will likely see a future SUP BOARD that will have the following characteristics:
- Narrow width bow
- Nose piercing bow
- Strategically flatten areas in the hull (not all flat, but with flat areas)
- Pin tail

In fact, Nelo's future boards may look more like a K15 - under 9 kilos including fin.

The above info is based on what they have accomplished with SURFSKIS. Nelo has the 560 which is an amazing surfski, but the based advancement is the Nelo 550 surfski. Two distinctly flat hull areas that add tons of primary stability.

Let's recall that primary stability is (in my opinion) crucial as reassures you the second you get on that ski / board. The current board may be the exact opposite of that, but again, it's my "best guess".


Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2018, 12:55:08 AM »
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.
Yes, this it it. You have to have raceboards designed by people who actually race, not who just paddle fast.

When we see Nelo shapers actually paddling in races (eg. like Mark Rasphorst and several other shapers), then I think that confidence will spread. Most flat water races are probably not decided by pure flat water speed any more, but that’s where designers who don’t race would naturally put their focus.

More specifically, its why if I were buying a board or looking for a team, I'd be paddling the 2018 Starboard Sprint. It's probably not as fast in a straight line as the 2017 or 2016 versions but it had tweaks based on the kind of racing and handling we need, not just raw speed in isolation.

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2018, 01:00:01 AM »

1) In fact, Nelo's future boards may look more like a K15 - under 9 kilos including fin.

2) The above info is based on what they have accomplished with SURFSKIS. Nelo has the 560 which is an amazing surfski, but the based advancement is the Nelo 550 surfski. Two distinctly flat hull areas that add tons of primary stability.

3) Let's recall that primary stability is (in my opinion) crucial as reassures you the second you get on that ski / board. The current board may be the exact opposite of that, but again, it's my "best guess".
1) I was only thinking this yesterday. That design was ahead of its time but with poor construction by todays standards. One of the domestic racers still does well on it (despite trying more recent allstars) even when the board weighs a huge amount.

2) I agree. I paddle Epic surfski's.

3) Absolutely and its primary stability that gets sales in my opinion, not the promise of secondary stability.

I hate to bring this subject up but this might be where you start to see a division between the ICF and the ISA equipment with competitors in one going with one type of construction that suits its racing formats but with surf remaining as is.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2018, 01:24:11 AM »
Perhaps it's the beginning of a BIG CHANGE.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2018, 01:47:16 AM »
It's also worth noting that the downside to a hollow construction fixed mould board design is that (like surfski's and kayaks) you'll likely see a longer R&D period but less turnover of new designs from a brand. The reason for this is that the manufacturer will need to get their moulds paid off so bringing new designs annually (as per foam construction) is both costly and inefficient. Current surf ski and kayak designs see years in service before the design is tweaked.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2018, 02:00:33 AM »
Yes, but do we really need a change every year?
Are SUP builders exempt from trying to make a great board design that will last 2 to 4 years?

The 14x25 Race was a complete flop - and could have been 100% avoided if the company wasn't rushed to produce a new board. Surely, that kind of mistake is repeated with most SUP - and the cause could very come from the need to produce something new every single year - using my money, your money and everyone's money to test new products for them.

Personally, I'd rather see a company slow the process down, and come out with more durable products, with shapes that are trued and actually tried (and by that, I specifically mean in-house testing before releasing a stellar board)
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2018, 02:08:36 AM »
Yes, but do we really need a change every year?
Are SUP builders exempt from trying to make a great board design that will last 2 to 4 years?

The 14x25 Race was a complete flop - and could have been 100% avoided if the company wasn't rushed to produce a new board. Surely, that kind of mistake is repeated with most SUP - and the cause could very come from the need to produce something new every single year - using my money, your money and everyone's money to test new products for them.

Personally, I'd rather see a company slow the process down, and come out with more durable products, with shapes that are trued and actually tried (and by that, I specifically mean in-house testing before releasing a stellar board)

I don't disagree. To a qualified eye, its clear to me that many of Starboards boards were just an ongoing stream of prototypes put into production annually. No other sports industry I know of works to that short scale timescale for new product development. That either means that they have the best R&D mechanism in the world or that they have a flawed process that they want you to pay for as often as possible. I'll let others be the judge.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2018, 02:12:54 AM »
I think that we’ve all agreed from the start of SUP that the “new model every year” SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike. The early days were especially mad, with sime brands producing nearly all different shapes and names every 12 month’s. But the rapid changes have reflected and helped the rapid development of the sport (and in surfing perhaps even more than racing). If the brands are going to keep models in production for many years then there will have to be better coordination between manufacturers and race organisers/governing bodies to avoid regulation or format changes being financially catastrophic for small companies, and it will tend to ossify design development and race/competitive formats. So there might be downsides as well as upsides.

burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2018, 06:40:30 AM »
I think that we’ve all agreed from the start of SUP that the “new model every year” SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.

With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.
in progress...

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2018, 06:53:55 AM »
I think that we’ve all agreed from the start of SUP that the “new model every year” SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.


A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.

I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:55:52 AM by ukgm »

burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2018, 07:29:23 AM »
I think that we’ve all agreed from the start of SUP that the “new model every year” SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.


A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.

I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !

It's a fair point as well. The point I'm making is using your knowledge to come up with a timeless design that works for you and lasts for years. It's doable, take a look at the SIC Bullet.
Once you've reached a certain level and identified the most fulfilling aspects of the sport and then tested pretty much every concept out there, I'm pretty sure you can make it work.

I didn't dive into the economics of the board resell arena but i'm pretty sure you're loosing money every year and still end up with a compromised product. You still have to come up with
a hefty sum every year, 33% or not. And if your board got damaged, a possibility likely to happen on those egg-shell boards you'll likely kiss your resell value goodbye.
in progress...

Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2018, 07:37:28 AM »
We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.

In fairness, some of us would love to have a custom but do not have proximity to a shaper....I would have loved to buy the equivalent of a 16' Bark Vapor with a nice layering. instead I had to console myself with buying a second hand Carbon Ghost one and sell my ProElite one. I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.
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Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
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