NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

[Luc Benac]

It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well.

He should come to Canada first!

[supuk]

I can tell you if you think the price of race boards is going to come down massively over time you are very sadly wrong. prices will continue to rise in general us as the cost of composites and materials increase or they will just continue to cut corners and use cheaper less skilled labour giving you even poorer quality product under the same coat of paint. It is possible to get more for your money with various different manufacturing techniques but this can only happen when designs are not changed every 12mths and high quality molds can be used for longer production runs. If people really want to see progress in sport more people need to support the small company's that have more respect for there workforce and the product they produce but also expect to pay more but in tern get a lot more for the money in forms of quality, construction techniques and more ethical forms of labour.


Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between  something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory

 people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador  discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.

People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
 

So sad but very true!

I still amazes me people spending $3000+ on a "China" made board when they could spend the same amount on a beautiful custom, tailored made for them and have control of every aspect of
the board. One also learns a lot about board design and construction during the process. After 4 custom boards I still believe that.

It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well. If you'll find a way to make a
a one-off hollow molded comparable to a foam core price wise, I would pull the trigger on that even with the pain involved in shipping it over here.

I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just don’t think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

[burchas]

I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just don’t think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

[photofr]

Let's share a little about R&D (Research and Development)

Most people think that we need 10-20 prototype boards to come out with ONE GOOD ONE - but that's just not true. Take Naish (back in the days when he was shaping them by hand), take TwoGood Kayaks (where I worked, right next door to Naish - building hollow surfski in the late 80's), take even Nelo today... etc... and you'll notice that since they were all experienced builders, it took them one plug (one prototype) that sometimes was slightly modified once, twice, or three times - AND THAT WAS IT. We were very careful to get it "right" because we would run with it for about 3 to 7 years.

Before the prototype was agreed upon, it was tested by several people, but not even Naish back in the day made 10 or 20 prototypes before releasing a new model.

Surfski today runs for 3 to 5 years - with the same exact Mold. When you want to go faster, you just train harder, train smarter, and work on technique. But your ski lasts - well after that.

RESEARCH
CHINA perhaps wants us to believe that they are building 20 prototypes - that is just not true.
They want us to believe that they are testing new boards extensively - but that's just not true at all - heck, they usually only test their new Open Water boards on dead flat water)

DESIGN
CAD Design "told" shapers to make the boards longer - and to use shape X in order to achieve intended use. Shapers, listen to CAD, and when the board came out 15 or 16 feet long, they simply took it upon themselves to cut off the rear of the board - to make it 12'6.

MARKETING
Then they went out of their way with marketing to tell you (the consumer) that 12'6 was better. Sadly, most people believed manufacturers. Let's be clear: 12'6 boards will benefit companies - not YOU. What is even more sad is that today (2018) you'll find a great many consumers who still believe that 12'6 is BETTER. It's like believing that Volvo is still the safest car in the World, sadly, most people do - because of extensive marketing (very successful marketing in fact).

R&D
If R&D was really present, we'd end up with boards that can be slightly improved from time to time. We would NEVER end up with a total lemon from time to time.

SADLY
SUP manufacturers are however working really hard at finding cheaper materiel (not lighter, stronger or more durable)

HOLLOW BOARDS
First off, not all hollow boards or hollow surfskis are created equally. The good ones will use:

FOAM CORE (aka Sandwich construction)
That a small amount of PVC foam 1/4" usually, that's going to lay between two main layers of cloth. Experience is crucial there, because it has to be laid out using a vacuum system and knowledge on how to curb your foam before placing it in your Mold. The cool thing with foam core is that your ski or board will not sink if it takes on water - AND the materiel will not rot if introduced to Ocean Water. This foam is closed-cell foam.

CLOTH
They can use glass, Kevlar, and/or carbon

RESIN
Epoxy is stronger, but more expensive.
Polyester resin is cheaper, but a little more flex.

Heck, putting it bluntly, let's just say that R&D is not taken into account when 11 years later, we are still building boards out of Styrofoam.

However, perhaps you think that building a plug, and then building a Mold will be lengthy and super expensive?
It isn't - especially with today's tools like CAD (Computer Aid Design) and machines to actually shape a Mold.

You don't want a Mold, but you also don't want the nasty Styrofoam?
Try this... NO WORDS... just look at the design and construction.
It costs you about $500 to make ONE.
It's about 10 kilos, faster than many 14' boards, far more stable, and well: kinda beautiful.

[supuk]

However, perhaps you think that building a plug, and then building a Mold will be lengthy and super expensive?
It isn't - especially with today's tools like CAD (Computer Aid Design) and machines to actually shape a Mold.

I'm sorry but that is not true! as all ways you can build a cheap mold using a board as a plug and then use vinyl ester  to lay the mold up which is the cheap option that will probably have a investment cost of €3-5000, I actually did a 12'6 like this may years ago, some were on here I think there was a thread. if you start bringing in cnc's then you immediately have a €50-60 per hour minimum charge for the machining time and around €100 per m2 for tooling board if you get the cheap stuff so your already in to the 8-10,000 area even you can then use vinyl ester again if you just doing wet layups or lo temp stuff however if you want to do it properly in a autoclave at high temp you need to lay the mold up in pre preg high temp carbon so at that point your at the €20,000 mark! I have do a huge amount of research on this and spoke to a number of companies so these are not made up numbers. If it was cheap I would have done it a long time ago!

[photofr]

CHEAP
If you want cheap, go with wood and ballistic cloth.

CHEAP AND FAST
Cheap is all very relative. In the late 80's, cheap would have been the equivalent to about $25000 to make one Mold. That's labor and materiel. Today, and with the help of computers and machines, you can expect a surfski Mold for about 15-$30000 - but sales are almost guaranteed if you come up with a 1/2 way descent design that's built well.

What's super positive today is the speed at which we can build a Mold. It used to take us the best part of 9 months, sometimes even 16 months to make a single Mold. Today, two to four weeks and you can have a Mold ready for production.

WAY MORE IMPORTANT
That's why (in my eyes) it's far more important to ensure you have a good design before you place it in production. If the new craft is designed for the middle of the pack paddlers, then it's imperative you get middle-of-the-pack paddlers on that board and provide you with real feedback.

If your "new" board is designed for top notch athletes, you gotta place that board in real life situation (several times over, with a variety of body weights and strength) before placing that board into production.

Sadly, what is happening NOW is just so different. However, with companies like NELO, THINK, and HUKI who have made the leap to Mold constructions, the future seems rather promising - as long as they test their new boards extensively before production.

[ukgm]

I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just don’t think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.

That was something quoted to me at the time. The bottom line is that tooling isn't cheap at all and CAD hasn't changed that (mainly as so much of tooling cost isn't the CAD but the finishing required on it - which often has to be done manually and can't be automated).

[supuk]

I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just don’t think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.

Exactly which is why people need to think a little bit and deside if supporting the businesses using this kind of labour often with little to know safety precautions is some they should be doing! Just because the workers are from China ect should they be used like this? ( I recently saw a video of a popular brands factory spaying boards with work wareing just a paper mask! )

[Area 10]

I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just don’t think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.

Exactly which is why people need to think a little bit and deside if supporting the businesses using this kind of labour often with little to know safety precautions is some they should be doing! Just because the workers are from China ect should they be used like this? ( I recently saw a video of a popular brands factory spaying boards with work wareing just a paper mask! )

That's a very good point, and I have seen videos with that happening too.

But the question is, what price do you think people should be paying for a SUP? (i.e. that would make it financially possible for a local shaper to build boards using better methods to produce a lighter, more durable product, and also do the R&D necessary to develop the design)?

[supuk]

I don't think the prices wouldn't need to change much from what people are paying for production boards it just needs a change in mentality from  the people to use these companies and to stop getting sucked in to the marketing bs from the others and look closely at the quality of the products they are getting from these second rate manufactures

Most of what people are paying for with these boards coming from over sea's is the shipping of them multiple times around the globe passing through the hands of agents and distributers that all add there % When if you go to someone smaller or even just based on the same continent although your paying the same the money will be going in to more skilled labor working under better conditions generally creating better products 

from my experience working with sponsors back in the day R&D was often a rushed process with designs going into production that had never actual been tested but just a thought of what needed to be changed from the previous model or prototype were a lot of the time the companies that don't have a yearly catalog are developing boards constantly making and tweaking designs so although it may not appear that they have done much R&D they have actually done a lot more refining than most as there is no need to change things just to generate some marketing blurb for the new season.

[Area 10]

Well then build yourself a demo fleet, hire a salesman/website manager, train up someone to do your glassing for you, and become a millionaire!

Certainly the construction of the Grey Paddleboards custom I have is unbelievably good. It’s virtually bullet-proof in comparison to the big brand boards, weighs less, and the attention to detail is far beyond the production boards. I’ve ridden it hard and in some pretty tricky conditions and it looks exactly the same as they day I got it.

I think that, as a customer, the main problem is that you just don’t know what is possible until you actually see a board that is well-made. 99% of people in many markets have never seen a custom.

[supuk]

unfortunately I really cant see people ever changing there ways enough and forsake there mates rates brand amasser team discounts to ever make it worth all the money and effort to develop and produce a production line of boards. As long as I can all ways build my own boards and not have to pay over the odd for one of these boards that will keep me happy I just hope in time peoples will realise and start to look closer at what they are buying and use companies like nelo that are not using low paid labour and building better quality

[Area 10]

Well, there’s a helluva lot of people who have looked at my custom with great interest. So I’m not sure your pessimism is well-founded. I got stopped on the beach just the other day by a guy who ran over and asked me where he could get one. But the race scene in the UK is saturated with people who will ride any old piece of crap just as long as they can call themselves a “sponsored rider” or “beach ambassador” or whatever. So yes, they are a lost cause. But there are still plenty of people who would love a custom that is brilliantly made, fits them perfectly, is made locally, and costs no more than a production board. But they need to be able to try one first. Once a shaper has established a brand name then customers may buy one on faith. But few people are going to buy a custom if they haven’t seen in advance what they will get. Mark Rasphorst has many pictures of his customs in his website. And no doubt we could try one of his designs too, if we were in Maui. So you’ve got yourself a chicken-and-egg situation, I suspect.

Yeah, Nelo etc are interesting. They just need to SUP more though, I suspect. Hopefully they will get there. I don’t mind paying a bit more to get a lot more.

[photofr]

Good points - and there's also the ever present factor: "must have what is popular" - in pretty much any sport.

Take skiing, snowboarding, biking, windsurfing, SUP,  Coca-Cola, tennis, etc... Would you really go buy a SUP that you have heard nothing about before? Manufacturers pray on that - it's actually the essence of marketing: "put it in people's faces, people will think it's popular".

Coca-Cola can sometimes be compared to poison. Why are you buying it? Why am I buying it? Well, actually, I don't drink much coke these days - but we must admit that they are everywhere we look. Their marketing used to be in excess of 70% of their entire earnings - for a good reason.

Certain SUP brands are bought because we see them winning - which is ridiculous because certain SUP brands go well out of their ways to literally purchase only the top paddlers. If you can't beat them, BUY THEM. Spectators aren't blind (but kind of) - they see this as "look, that board made a Podium again".


With all of this said, I believe we are even more fortunate than we think when we have a new brand coming out with innovating designs and construction methods that will - no doubt - change the way we see SUP. Nelo is one example.

At the same time, I am totally shocked with how Nelo did it.
They have years and YEARS of experience in R&D, construction, etc...
They have redefined how crafts will move through the water - or at least came up with several hull designs to make glide through the water even better. They have done this with flat water kayaks, flat water canoes, and now with SURFSKIS.

I AM MOST SHOCKED BECAUSE:
Nelo could have easily by-passed a German middle man.
Nelo could have easily come up with their design.

Mark my words: a board with Nelo R&D, with Nelo construction and with Nelo distribution would cost between 1800 and 2200 euros in most European countries. Add the middle man, and you immediately add about 40%.

[ukgm]

My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.