NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

[Luc Benac]

Yes but realistically, how much is it going to affect most of us (outside of Bryce who is racing flat water). Still going to get on the outflow during the winter and on the inflow during the summer :-) Still going to do some day trip on a nice flat spring or autumn day. My boards can last another few years before I have to worry about replacement (outside of just feeling like it).

[photofr]

It’s actually easy to demonstrate.
Pictures to follow when I have more time.

Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the board’s axis.

Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your board’s axis.

This is why people’s brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.

I’m going to need a diagram or two to understand your point, I’m afraid. Could you please just jot down what you mean?

Here's a RAW diagram.
The most important things to note:





ON TOP, the right green square goes FURTHER AWAY from the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) – see the red result.

ON THE DUGOUT, the right green square GETS CLOSER to the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) – see the yellow result.



EASIER:
For those paddling ON TOP of a board, your brain will get used to (say) a gain BUT will be completely out of whack when exactly the opposite happens with a DUGOUT board.

[Area 10]

I probably won’t even be able to stand on the boards that the top National competitors (never mind the most elite internationally) within a year or two, never mind race them.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Yep, it's known as re-skilling in my field. It's taken a sport that was all about the paddling and water management into the balancing act Jimmy Terrell and others forecasted. It's happened, it's here and I'm out.

Yep, me too. This thread has been very useful in kinda cementing in my mind what I already knew. It’s quite liberating, in a way.

I’ll still SUP surf. But I’m mostly alone these days. A couple of weeks ago we had the most glorious weather and surf for about a week here. I was at my favourite break, a mile offshore, catching glassy head-high+ waves in warm sun, with rides up to half a mile long, at will. And I had the whole place to myself. A few years ago they’d have been a whole gang of us. But the good guys have moved to foiling and the newcomers are not ambitious enough or don’t have sufficient background skills and experience to tackle those kinds of breaks.

Similar situation with downwinding.

But maybe in other geographical areas things are different. It takes a particular person to persevere at SUP in UK conditions. Now the novelty has worn off, and the racing side has become so serious - and technically out of the reach of most of the population- other pursuits become more tempting.

There’s a river/canal I paddle for fitness with a friend about an hour from me. Every time we go we see a canoe club out there. They are clearly very serious and train hard. Lots of them have Nelo boats. They blast past, often looking pretty impressive technically. But boy oh boy do they look miserable. And it’s quite clear from their looks what they think of us. I can’t blame them I suppose. They’ve opened their club to SUPs now, and it’s a wonderful deal you get for your money in terms of clubhouse, resources, discounts etc. The ICF have told them to get some SUPs in. But no SUPers have joined so far, to my knowledge. Maybe when Nelo dominate, a few of them willl start standing up, and then the handing over of the baton of the sport will be complete. Maybe even the ICF are supporting Nelo

[Luc Benac]

I am not very technically oriented so frankly cannot make sense of what you are saying.
Are you saying that in a dugout, the right foot when leaning right goes under water level on a dugout but that on a flat bed it stays over water level.
Or is it in relation to the center line of the board, that the right foot somewhat get further away from the center line on an oblong board but both feet stay roughly at the same distance on a dugout.

Also it would be easier to visualize if the top board was a flat deck rather than a fully oblong shape.

[Area 10]

photofr- what you said was:

“Standing inside a board, said board will roll a certain way.
Standing on top of a board, the roll will be exactly the opposite”.

But your diagram isn’t showing an “opposite” pattern of roll, is it?

[photofr]

It’s actually easy to demonstrate.
Pictures to follow when I have more time.

Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the board’s axis.

Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your board’s axis.

This is why people’s brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.

I’m going to need a diagram or two to understand your point, I’m afraid. Could you please just jot down what you mean?

Here's a RAW diagram.
The most important things to note:





ON TOP, the right green square goes FURTHER AWAY from the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) – see the red result.

ON THE DUGOUT, the right green square GETS CLOSER to the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) – see the yellow result.



EASIER:
For those paddling ON TOP of a board, your brain will get used to (say) a gain BUT will be completely out of whack when exactly the opposite happens with a DUGOUT board.

In attempt to explain it a little better (gees, it's so much easier to demonstrate in person) - I revamped the explanation. Let me know if it now makes sense:

ON TOP, the right green square goes FURTHER AWAY from the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) – see the red result.

ON THE DUGOUT, the right green square GETS CLOSER to the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) – see the yellow result.

[photofr]

The following image should clarify that:
- WHEN STANDING ON TOP: the board tilts, green becomes red (the right foot moves +20 units away from the axis point)
- WHEN INSIDE A DUGOUT: the board tilts, blue becomes yellow (the right foot moves -5 units closer to the axis point).

***
The reason many people feel that a board is tippier than it should be is because the brain sometimes misinterprets tilts on dugout boards; the brain thinks the right foot should be moving away from the axis when in fact it's moving closer to the axis - or vise/versa depending on which board your come from.
***

[Luc Benac]

Thanks for the clarification.
So do you think that the brain is getting an increasing impression that we are going to fall "overboard" because the foot is closer to the axis? Accentuated by the sidewall that look like they would "trip" the leg?

[Area 10]

Dugouts feel MORE stable to me, not less. The only reason I found the Ace tippy was because of it’s extraordinary sharp pointed tail. When I tried the Mistral Equinox which was a design based on the Ace but with a wider tail, it felt usefuly more stable despite being slightly narrower. So I reject the premise of photofr’s claim: I am used to flat deck boards for sure, but if I hop in a dugout I don’t suddenly find them tippier than I would the same design only without the sidewalls (more or less).

[photofr]

@ LUC:
No, not necessarily an increasing impression - instead, I feel that the brain is getting the exact opposite reaction from one board to the other, like a mirror impression. But don't worry, I think it will be made simpler below...

--------------------------

Sorry guys... it's been a really LONG day.
Please allow me to simplify things, and so as to make the scenario much clearer.

To address what I believe to be true from personal experience:
- The side to side motion of a board is perceived very differently by our brains, depending on weather you are standing ON TOP of a board or INSIDE A DUGOUT board.

NOTE
In this example, both boards will tilt right 15 degrees.
Everything is completely exaggerated, but only to demonstrate what happens in a clearer manner.

IMPORTANT RESULTS
1.Foot placement doesn't change on the board.
2. The direction of each foot relative to the axis is exactly the OPPOSITE (from Standing ON TOP of a board to Standing INSIDE A DUGOUT board).
3. Keep your eyes on the right foot in the top 2 sketches below: you will notice that when the board lays flat, the right foot moves AWAY from the axis when you are PADDLING ON TOP (see the difference between 2 & 4).
4. Keep your eyes on the right foot in the bottom 2 sketches below: you will notice that when the board lays flat, the right foot moves CLOSER to the axis when you are PADDLING INSIDE A DUGOUT (see the difference between 6 & .

[Luc Benac]

Yes I see your point regarding the right foot coming close or farther depending if you are over or under the central axis. Not sure what effect this has on my brain. I would have assumed that simply when a board tilts a bit, the closer you are to the axes of the tilt and closer you are from the water surface, the steadier it is.

One think I have to say is that a paddling stance as close as possible to water level is just so much nicer.
This week-end we had flat water and I took the Ace-GT out one day and the Maliko the other. Even with the Maliko seating pretty low on the water, I did realize that there was a difference.
Enough difference to warrant between one and two inches in paddle shaft length.

I do not notice the same when the water is moving only on somewhat flat water which I found strange in itself.
So yes it I was to have a flat water board, I would want it to be a dugout of some kind in order to seat as low as possible on the water.
I do not have any experience with tippy dugout like an Ace 25" or a Storm, only with the Ace-GT.

[photofr]

Absolutely no doubt that "everything else being totally equal" a dugout board will be more stable - just as soon as your brain gets accustomed to the "opposites" effects. Keep in mind that some people have spent many years paddling ON TOP of a board and only on top. For them, a dugout will feel very different to them, especially during the first few minutes on the board (again, because of the opposites effects). Some people will "never" get used to that... but only because they are content with what they got.

Another point probably worth noting about dugout boards:
Paddle size!

Using my Allstar (14x25) required me to purchase a new paddle, for all my boards were dugouts and therefore too short. I have to admit though, having a shorter paddle is not only lighter and easier to swing around, but it just feel so much better all around.

But hey: let me now turn the page over to all of those who will hate dugout boards, hollow boards, UL, and/or anything light and super reactive (come on... it's a joke... LAUGH!)

[ukgm]

1) Yep, me too. This thread has been very useful in kinda cementing in my mind what I already knew. It’s quite liberating, in a way.

2) But maybe in other geographical areas things are different. It takes a particular person to persevere at SUP in UK conditions. Now the novelty has worn off, and the racing side has become so serious - and technically out of the reach of most of the population- other pursuits become more tempting.

3) Maybe even the ICF are supporting Nelo

1) The board test did that for me and a current lack of event innovation. It dawned on me that product in general was poor and it was the same old events with the same old people. It just got boring. I also wanted one day national championships with some prestige and age group recognition.

2) I'll still paddle regulary as its a great method of cross training.

3) Look at where the worlds were going to be last year and you'll probably have your answer there ;-) .

[Luc Benac]

1) Yep, me too. This thread has been very useful in kinda cementing in my mind what I already knew. It’s quite liberating, in a way.

2) But maybe in other geographical areas things are different. It takes a particular person to persevere at SUP in UK conditions. Now the novelty has worn off, and the racing side has become so serious - and technically out of the reach of most of the population- other pursuits become more tempting.

3) Maybe even the ICF are supporting Nelo

1) The board test did that for me and a current lack of event innovation. It dawned on me that product in general was poor and it was the same old events with the same old people. It just got boring. I also wanted one day national championships with some prestige and age group recognition.

2) I'll still paddle regulary as its a great method of cross training.

3) Look at where the worlds were going to be last year and you'll probably have your answer there ;-) .

There was a new downwind race opening to SUP last summer in my favourite spot (19km) and there is another one (15km) been created a ferry ride away this year.
I will miss one but I was the first one to register again to the other one for the second year and almost all my friends are coming :-)

https://www.facebook.com/events/891136014610903/

https://www.facebook.com/events/261244164778141/

Disclaimer: I am old and boring

[mrbig]

If you are the proud wearer of an ICD a dugout is out of the question!

However, after a brief paddle and discovery why I am curious how people without such a gadget respond to falling and hitting the edge.

Highly skilled folks just don't fall, but I did and it was most unpleasant. Clambering back aboard was also horrible..