Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259444 times)

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #270 on: April 19, 2018, 04:38:10 AM »
I would insist on having more than one paddler, but ukgm is more lax about these things :)
;D
I know you'll know this but my opinion of this is that this decision comes down to the research question you're actually asking. You are either asking the question "is board A faster than board B" or is "board A faster for me than board B". These aren't the same. In pretty much all cases for us as paddlers, its about the latter. However, brands would be more concerned about the former as they are dealing with the whole market. This is why my testing doesn't involve multiple paddlers as its not relevant to what I want to know. Considering my own testing can obtain a coefficient of variation of circa 3% (which is nearly on par with lab-based testing), I'm pretty confident on my process (however it should be noted that this is for flatwater testing only which as you wisely point out is not actually what most races see). There are some obvious caveats and limitations.

If you're right though and the gain of the Nelo is ~0.3kph, that is frankly game changing in my book.

I should add that I've been offered access to a Nelo and if I can just clear some of my workload down, I will test it if i can get it local to me.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 04:41:08 AM by ukgm »

yugi

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #271 on: April 19, 2018, 06:34:00 AM »
please test if red  is faster too.

Or is it just a myth?

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #272 on: April 19, 2018, 09:58:25 AM »
please test if red  is faster too.

Or is it just a myth?

Well, if you think its faster or slower, it probably is.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #273 on: April 19, 2018, 10:44:11 AM »
Red decelerates faster, green accelerates faster. Everyone knows that. That’s why traffic lights have red for stop, green for go.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #274 on: April 19, 2018, 10:52:39 AM »
It seems like we are taking this a little to far. I think it is nice for a member to review a board and give their feedback and experience. If it is much faster for them then it may be that it is just much faster for them. I know that I am quite a bit faster on a 25 inch wide board and if I went down to 23 and was on flat water I would most likely be even faster if I stay out of the water.

if this member wants to do more scientific tests then it would be great but do not attack them for not doing so. Remember that the reason we put so much into these pieces of carbon is to get out on the water and have a good time while getting in very good shape.
It’s entirely to your credit that you leap to photofr’s defence - although enough of us have been on the receiving end of salvos from him to know well that he is perfectly capable of defending himself.

Have you ever watched a family argument start, in a family that is not your own? Without the perspective of the history of past discussions it often seems like everyone is over-reacting. I think that might be what is happening here :)

For instance, it wasn’t so long ago that photofr was point-blank accusing me of lying. So if you engage with people like that then you must expect robust examination of your own pronouncements, especially if they seem too good to be true. But I am hoping he is actually correct.

0.3kph in undisturbed flat water wouldn’t be that much of a game-changer if it was also 0.3kph slower once there are ripples in the water...

paulosup

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #275 on: April 19, 2018, 11:10:31 AM »
Hi guys.
First time posting here! I've been a regular visitor to the Zone but after reading about the Nelo board for so long in this thread I think I can bring some insight from Portugal.
I'm Portuguese and Nelo is one of the prides of Portugal, being a very successful case study, dominating the kayak production and delivering a high quality product.
However, regarding SUP I think they still have a very long way to go. I've seen the board a few times and I think I can give my opinion (although I haven't tried yet).
First of all, as Photofr said recently it is not a Nelo shape. The shape was developed by Lightcorp (a german or austrian company) and Nelo produces it. In Portugal there are only two C1 guys (from what I know) that paddle this board (Nelo lets them use it) and not one regular SUP racer uses it. The board is flatwater only: has zero nose rocker and from what I remembered the bottom tail is pretty flat also.
The two OC1 guys that paddle with it are in their early 20s and hold several national titles. They only paddle with it when it's really flat (river or lake only) and don't go out when it's choppy and never go out in the ocean (mind that although Portugal has a very large coast and almost everyone lives near the ocean, most canoeists here only paddle in rivers, lakes or canoe lanes).
I think design has one major flaw: the drain holes are located between the lower rails and the bottom, and instead of the water coming out of the cockpit, the water goes into the cockpit through the draining holes. Both riders use silver tape to block the holes.
As for the construction, and this is my personal view, I think a hollow construction like this is not suitable for choppy waters and ocean, and the board would vibrate a lot on these conditions.
Nelo is developing and testing a board that they claim will go to 18 km/h (and I believe it will) but its' basically a chopped off kayak from what I understand (and they don't have a SUP shaper or designer). Sure this board will be very fast, but it is a very specific board for sprinting in really flat conditions (no turning ability or able to handle the regular chop or the chop made by other racers at the beginning of races).
This is exactly what Jimmy Terrell told it would happen a few years ago in an article called The Death and Rebirth of SUP Racing (http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/): "we’re going to see our user-friendly sport slowly deteriorate from the threat of specialized, hi-tech equipment that doesn’t have user-friendly shapes or consumer-friendly prices. We’re going to see race boards that are impossible to paddle for all but the most elite, well-balanced paddlers. We’ll lose the accessibility that made this sport so popular in the first place."
At the moment the most popular racing shaps from SUP brands are the all-water boards and some brands even dropped their flatwater boards from the lineup or make them usable in not so flat conditions or even eficiente in the ocean.
So, this what I know about the Nelo boards. I don't know if they have plans to develop an all-water or ocean board.
Hope this helps in bringing some more information.

FloridaWindSUP

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #276 on: April 19, 2018, 08:15:53 PM »
That's interesting that the 14x23 Nelo was 1.2 kph faster than the 14x25 Ace on the 15 km loop. But what was the actual, average speed of each board?

Something like 10.0 kph vs. 8.8 kph would really impress me. Something like 8.6 kph vs. 7.4 kph would not impress me as much. Because the dream is a board that can more easily maintain speeds above hull speed, which is 9.3 kph for a 14' board.
14x23 Riviera RP
14x27.25 Fanatic Falcon
11'8 Exocet WindSUP
10'4 Angulo WindSUP
...and a bunch of windsurf stuff

mr_proper

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #277 on: April 19, 2018, 10:31:07 PM »
I've paddled the board a couple of times and I'm still thrilled.
Draft works at least as well as with the Allstar and on my usual rounds I am about 0.5 km/h faster.
I have not raced a race yet, but a friend. Nearly 10 km with wind, with buoy turns and twice on land around a buoy. He had no problems and did not go swimming. There was a lot of 21.5 sprints and he could finished in the top 10 with his 24.75.
With the Nelo he has reached his highest average speed on the 10 km training round, which was 9.7 km/h. However, it is difficult to make a comparison here because the conditions often differ slightly. His weight is around 72 kg.
In terms of my size and weight, boat waves coming from the side are the biggest challenge right now.
The design of the drain holes has been changed so that some water actually runs into the stand. But it is by no means more than with the Allstar.
SIC RS 14x23, 2018
SIC RS 14x26, 2018
Lightcorp Signature Race 14x24.75, 2018 (sold)
JP Australia AdventurAir 12x36, 2017
Starboard Allstar 14x24.5, 2017 (sold)
SIC Bullet 14x27.25 TWC, 2015
Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder 14x25, 2016 (sold)
Sprint 14x23, 2015 (sold)
JL Stiletto 14x28, 2014 (sold)

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #278 on: April 20, 2018, 01:51:53 AM »
There has been some great recent feedback. Thanks for people posting this.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #279 on: April 20, 2018, 03:57:48 AM »
Yes, it’s great to have some more detail.

0.5kph increase in average speed over an All Star in pure flat water sounds at the upper end of what you’d expect from a high-end dedicated flat water board, but not at all impossible.

yugi

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #280 on: April 20, 2018, 05:02:08 AM »
^ yep

Sounds realistic.

Don't underestimate how much faster you can go when your wallet is $4500 lighter! In terms of lightness it's a win win!

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #281 on: April 20, 2018, 08:31:44 AM »
Guys: hear this now!

If you want the details, keep on reading.
For those in a rush: I now have zero doubt that this board is the fastest 14' board FOR ME on flat water.

DETAILS
I am racking some serious miles on this new Nelo board. I can simply state this:
This 14' board is the second fastest board I have ever paddled in my life. The only faster one was a UL (17'6 x 23 with a needle nose and needle tail) and it wasn't faster by much at all.

However, I do believe you would have to be ME in order to benefit from the huge increase in speed. Let me explain here:

1. You'd have to be pretty light (under 140 pounds) to really feel the weight difference of the board. It will even be more noticeable if you have low fat to muscle ratios. With that kind of morphology, you'll feel like you constantly want to launch another acceleration. It's a noticeably light.

2. You'd have to be certain that you aren't experiencing balance issues. Anything other than well planted feet on the board, you are going to loose mega speed. The efficiency of the board will be thrown out of the window, the second you are hesitating on power. I believe that having paddled a needle board for so long in the Ocean has really helped me more than I can imagine.

3. I am seeing an amazing increase in speed (between 1.00 and 1.20 km/h DIFFERENCE) but pay close attention what I am measuring it to!!! I am comparing it to the only other board I own: a 14x25 Ace - a 2017 model. It's got a lot of rocker, it pushes a lot of water, it's heavy - however, it's not that slow on flat water (with the right person on it). I am however the WRONG person on the Ace (I am just too light). Because of this, it's probably making the difference in speed between the two boards even more obvious.

DOES IT MATTER THAT I AM COMPARING IT TO AN ACE?
To a certain extent, it does - but far less than you think - because the real kicker here is that I have not had such high average speeds with my 2016 Sprint 14x23 (that I had for nearly two years) or my 2016 Allstar 14x25 (that I owned for a little over a year). If anything, I am absolutely certain that I am in a freekin' loosy shape right now, yet, I am getting slightly more than 0.7 km/h increase in speed from anything I have done on my Sprint (comparing only flat water runs with flat water runs).

WHAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO ME?
It's not racing.
It's not buoy turns.
Glide (and efficiency) rank #1 in my books. Since I am now living inland, I will mostly find most of my pleasures in canals within Northern France.

Overall speed is important too though - so when I get on a board that is repeatedly over 1km/h faster than the Ace 14x25, you can just imagine just imagine my smile. Yes, I am still getting so close to the exact same numbers, even on my 5th session with the board.

IRRESPONSIBLE TESTING?
Yeah, these were some of the least scientific tests I have ever conducted. I gotta ask: so what??? These tests don't need to please but one single person: ME. Therefore, I don't need 5 boards, 5 people, and 5 hours to tests boards.

Just keep this in mind:
When I was in better shape, I racked more miles than most and obtained enough data on my 14' Sprint, on my 14' Allstar, and on my 14' Ace to clearly state a few things.

1. The 14' Sprint averages 0.7 km/h slower than the Nelo.
2. One of my best speed averages with the 14' Sprint was still 0.4 km/h slower than with the Nelo.
3. The 14' Ace averages 1.1 km/h slower than the Nelo.
4. One of my best speed averages with the 14' Ace was still 0.8 km/h slower than with the Nelo.

Note A: In all instances above, I was in better shape than since I have the Nelo board.
Note B: I only took flat water runs to compare what is comparable.
Note C: Only runs that were over 10km were used for comparing data.

You shouldn't ask yourself if you are going to or not going to get the same increase in speed with a Nelo board. I am MERELY sharing my enthusiasm and letting you know that I am blown away - for I have found a gem. I wish I had time to give you more scientific data, and put the boards through extensive testing, but truth be told, it isn't so easy for me to find people / boards up here - in Northern France. Essentially, I'll let someone else to let YOU know how this board might feel for YOU.

Stay tuned and I will tell you what I FEEL could be improved on this board.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 09:04:12 AM by photofr »
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #282 on: April 20, 2018, 08:58:52 AM »
So... to be clear, I have the new Nelo board - 14' x 23"
It's down right amazing (for me) and while it's my very favorite 14' board for flat water, and while I take great joy to paddle it, there are still a few changes I would like to see on that board.

THE V DECK
It's a V deck, therefore your feet aren't flat. That is okay for short distances, and I while I do feel like I am getting used to that, I must admit that it's just too slanted, and it's just not as comfortable as what I am used to. The highest part of the board is in the center, and the deck then slants left and right from there. Think of it as an uncomfortable inverted V deck.

THE DECK PAD
You guys may not care too much... however, I love Starboard's deck pad. It's soft, and it's nice. Nelo is using the good old fashion diamond deck pad. It seems much harder, and perhaps not so comfortable with my weight. Either way, I don't like it much.

DRAINS
Water does come in the drains - but only at slow speeds (with my weight). I plugged those things with foam. I would love to see a better system for draining - and how about a one-way valve? At higher speed, or on a warm day, I don't find that to be an issue.

LEASH PLUG
Installing a frontal leash plug would be a welcome addition. Heck, installing a GoPro mount would be nice too so that I could use my surfski accessories on the board too.

WAVE DEFLECTOR
I want to see a wave deflector on that thing. I surfed a boat wake yesterday (totally do-able BTW, and super fun). The board takes off on a dime (probably its weight again - or lack thereof). However, on my first try, I made a stupid mistake and didn't take my step back - and therefore swamped the cockpit in a "flash". A simple wave deflector may do the trick. Thankfully, I have one more Nelo surfski wave deflector that I will be installing for open water. It should come as standard.

PRIMARY STABILITY
I am a sucker for primary stability. It means very little in Open water, however, it's that "reassuring" first and initial feeling you get as you first get on the board: and in this case, there just isn't much there in terms of stability when you first get on it. Meaning, I would love to see more primary stability, even at the expense of less secondary. Once you get moving though, there's tons of stability on that board, with or without waves... but you MUST keep moving. There's more primary stability on my Sprint 14x23, but this board is in part with the Sprint once it gets moving.

Clearly, there isn't much I would do differently for this board. I am just being nick-picking here. This board isn't cheap, but it's still cheaper than a comparable staby - though the construction of the Nelo board is far more sturdy. I should know, I have abused my Nelo surfski - made with the exact same material - and the thing still looks nearly brand new.

I am psyched !

Last items to point out:
This board will rock in the Ocean, and in even in small downwind.
This board is easier to spin than the Sprint - another "flat water board" that is used in the Ocean by pros.
This board will draft like - TOO EASY.
Good luck drafting me - with ease. :)


« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 09:01:49 AM by photofr »
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

mr_proper

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #283 on: April 20, 2018, 09:37:50 AM »
Don't underestimate how much faster you can go when your wallet is $4500 lighter! In terms of lightness it's a win win!

"We offer special teamrider discounts to active race paddles and canoe-sup clubs ."
https://www.light-sup.com/test--testimonial.html

So it isn't sooo much faster ;-)
SIC RS 14x23, 2018
SIC RS 14x26, 2018
Lightcorp Signature Race 14x24.75, 2018 (sold)
JP Australia AdventurAir 12x36, 2017
Starboard Allstar 14x24.5, 2017 (sold)
SIC Bullet 14x27.25 TWC, 2015
Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder 14x25, 2016 (sold)
Sprint 14x23, 2015 (sold)
JL Stiletto 14x28, 2014 (sold)

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #284 on: April 20, 2018, 10:05:31 AM »
Purchasing this board out right has set me back quite a bit - but know that I didn't get a single euro OFF the board. Mine will come straight from the French distributor.

FOR REF
For now, however, I am using their demo boards - until mine arrives.
(it's been built, it's ready for shipping... but I am still being hopeful that it will arrive within the next few days)
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

 


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