Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2

[supuk]

I have a number of new ideas to simplify and make rudder systems way more versatile I'm dying to prototype soon as I get back home plus my rc rudder which has but been waiting to be fitted since I have been away.  Silly stuff like this gets me pretty exited

[Muskoka SUP]

It's clear ocean racers are all on UL boards with steering. I guess a 17'+ board needs one.

I really like the idea of a 16' that's nimble enough to manage without. I like the running around on the board to make it turn. It's an integral part of the sport IMO. Getting better at that is what turns me on to the sport. I like simplicity in sports gear. I'm a telemarker and a singlespeeder. Totally ludicrous from a performance perspective but way more fun.

Fixie SUP. Yes! The term is coined.

"Fixie Sup" .....   Nicely..

[mrbig]

+1 Yugi on fixie sup. I will soldier on with my 14' Focus Bluefin with a huge MFC fin.

The bottom looks like wavy gravy though..

[PonoBill]

how much time in how many different environments have you spent paddling a fixed fin UL board? Exactly. Come back when you've put in some proper hours on one in the kinds of conditions I'm talking about. And ideally make sure it's a board designed to be used as a fixed fin, as supuk says. THEN you will see what I am talking about.

I have two 18' Speedboards with fixed fins that I have many hundreds of hours on. And yes, of course I've downwinded them.

[XLR8]

I am lucky to downwind with iDownwind and it is telling that he and I are on the same page, wondering about unlimiteds.  Our crew has been kicking this idea around but biting the bullet, so to speak, and paying the $$ to check out an unlimited is daunting.  I have the 14 Bullet V2 fixed fin and don't worry about stability with it but I am also a bigger guy, 6'2 215 lbs.  I am interested in the unlimited as well but mostly from an efficiency and maximizing the bump and glide perspective.

What I wonder about is whether or not the length can be an issue in short interval wind driven bumps where the troughs can get pretty steep in the better conditions.  Certainly you can enter the bumps on an angle and work across, or go up and over and drop in again.  But I wonder about working those boards in our short interval conditions.  I have seen some discussion on that here but wonder if there are any key points that could be mentioned again?

I would love to find an affordable Naish Glide 17 or an older Bullet to check out....cool iDownwind that you posted this on the same night I was searching classifieds for an unlimited!

[PonoBill]

They work in short period runs, but they are often hard to get a real benefit from. You have to be turning them constantly to keep them in the power. the Viento run here in Hood River offers a wide variety of conditions, from head high drops to ankle-size riffles, all in the same run. It's all short interval, there's no fetch to separate out the long interval stuff. I'm the only person I know here using a 17 Bullet. There's Lazlo with an F16, but otherwise, everyone is on 14's. And that's a LOT of everyones. The Viento run has become hugely popular

For me the trick to using a Bullet 17.5 here is hard turns--I catch a bump running straight to get the best shove, and then turn hard to go across the face down low, where the power is. The surface is chaotic, so you have to look ahead for a slot to get through and generally turn the opposite direction to your travel angle. The fastest path is a horrid zig-zag. You can't really just railroad straight ahead--the nose will punch under and the tail will lift and push it deeper as the wave rolls under. In the same circumstance, a 14 downwinder board will rarely boof, and doesn't have the downward spiral of lifting the tail when the nose punches.

That makes your runs kind of specialized, and switching from one board to another is a challenge. I'm terribly slow on a 14, reasonably fast on a surfboard (for a surfboard), and fastest on my 17.5. I'd need to just ride 14's for a few weeks to reprogram. Not going to happen. The 17 is too much fun, and I enjoy the challenge of fitting it into the short interval.

[nalu-sup]

I am just a newbie at downwinding, and from that perspective can give my experience on the F16 versus the Bullet 14 v1. On my first Maliko run (25-30 mph) I paddled an F14 wide (30"), which was pretty stable though hard for me to catch glides. Part way through the run I switched onto an F16 (27.25"), and caught way more glides right away, but fell too often to be able to stay on that board for long. On my third downwinder we went to Kihei on the south side of Maui, and conditions were perfect 25 mph with nicely lined up wind swells. I started on the F16 and immediately fell in love with the sport; lots of long glides and few falls. Part way through I switched to the Bullet 14 v1, and caught less long glides with many more falls; not nearly as much fun. I then switched to the F14 wide which was very stable, but again harder to catch and connect glides due to the extra drag from the width.
One follow up comment relating to Off-shores post. He commented that he did not feel that much difference in stability between his F16 and the Bullet 14, but remember that his F16 is a custom v3, which is narrower than the v2 that is the production board.
As far as the rudder, I found it easy and invaluable for me on the F16. During the start of the Kihei run, we were paddling slightly across the wind, and the rudder made it very easy to maintain a crosswind course, and then quickly kick the rudder over to bare off down the small tightly packed swells at the start of the run. On my very first downwind attempt in Kihei on a 14 without a rudder from another brand, I was caught in a 20 mph crosswind that nearly ended in disaster from being pushed onto some rocks because I was struggling to hold the nose on course across the wind; rudders for me from now on.

[Area 10]

how much time in how many different environments have you spent paddling a fixed fin UL board? Exactly. Come back when you've put in some proper hours on one in the kinds of conditions I'm talking about. And ideally make sure it's a board designed to be used as a fixed fin, as supuk says. THEN you will see what I am talking about.

I have two 18' Speedboards with fixed fins that I have many hundreds of hours on. And yes, of course I've downwinded them.

But not in the conditions I'm talking about, I'm sure. You'd be nuts to use those boards in those conditions.

[burchas]

These days I'm preferring my 16x24.5" for it...

These days I'm thinking a lot about a 16 footer.

I'd be interested to see this board. If you can post some pics showing
all the relevant attributes that makes the board do what it does that
would be great...

[Luc Benac]

These days I'm preferring my 16x24.5" for it...

These days I'm thinking a lot about a 16 footer.

I'd be interested to see this board. If you can post some pics showing
all the relevant attributes that makes the board do what it does that
would be great...

Me too but for a flat water board.

[PonoBill]

how much time in how many different environments have you spent paddling a fixed fin UL board? Exactly. Come back when you've put in some proper hours on one in the kinds of conditions I'm talking about. And ideally make sure it's a board designed to be used as a fixed fin, as supuk says. THEN you will see what I am talking about.

I have two 18' Speedboards with fixed fins that I have many hundreds of hours on. And yes, of course I've downwinded them.

But not in the conditions I'm talking about, I'm sure. You'd be nuts to use those boards in those conditions.

Of course I've downwinded them in wildly inappropriate conditions. A 30 mph Viento run among others. Kind of fun, kind of awful.  If you haven't figured out by now that I'm nuts then you probably never will.

[iDownwind]

Some great replies here. As PonoBill mentioned, one of my concerns is having the nose go under as a steep wave picks up the tail and drives it forward and down. I don't think it would be too bad though, but I've been wrong before. With my NSP, I can get back on the tail and stall it out a bit, or possibly turn down the line a bit and link with another wave. I assume the F16 would be similar.
XLR8 and I get out together frequently, and I am glad to see he's thinking about a UL too. We get quite a variety of crappy downwind conditions that I feel a UL with steering could make a down-breeze slog, into something much more enjoyable.... or not.
We've been committing to go further away from home water to find better conditions, so I think our fun is going to be enhanced this summer.
 There are a few runs we have that I think would be especially fun on a 16' UL. The ones on Lake Michigan are the ones where I am thinking about having more stability, AND possibly more speed over all. I'm getting better at keeping up with XLR8 and Bikeski, but still have to learn to "relax" and just go with the conditions. If an SIC F16 would be markedly more stable in ALL conditions, then I think I need to get serious about finding one.
Being that I am 6'4" and 225lbs., will the tiller location on an A.S.S board be a problem for me? Will I be constantly stepping on it? I found with the V2 that my ideal foot placement was just along side, and slightly ahead of the midpoint of the tiller, and that sucked for me. It probably doesn't matter, but I am a goofy foot too.

[yugi]

...

Of course I've downwinded them in wildly inappropriate conditions. A 30 mph Viento run among others. Kind of fun, kind of awful.  If you haven't figured out by now that I'm nuts then you probably never will.

LOL

Here, you'll appreciate this kid...

[yugi]

   https://www.facebook.com/mastersofdirt/videos/10155231820116796/

[Area 10]

how much time in how many different environments have you spent paddling a fixed fin UL board? Exactly. Come back when you've put in some proper hours on one in the kinds of conditions I'm talking about. And ideally make sure it's a board designed to be used as a fixed fin, as supuk says. THEN you will see what I am talking about.

I have two 18' Speedboards with fixed fins that I have many hundreds of hours on. And yes, of course I've downwinded them.

But not in the conditions I'm talking about, I'm sure. You'd be nuts to use those boards in those conditions.

Of course I've downwinded them in wildly inappropriate conditions. A 30 mph Viento run among others. Kind of fun, kind of awful.  If you haven't figured out by now that I'm nuts then you probably never will.

Ok, so now I can see why you think that fixed fins don't work on ULs. You need the right board, the right fin, the right conditions and the right rider. But good for you for giving it a go.