Author Topic: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2  (Read 15470 times)

iDownwind

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« on: May 01, 2017, 04:30:21 PM »
Question for you guys here on the Zone. I have been curious of how different an SIC F16 would be, compared to a Bullet V2 (with A.S.S). I had a Bullet V2, but only used it a few times because of the placement of the tiller, the narrow tail, lack of volume and "tippyness" of the board. Shortly after picking up the V2, I also picked up an NSP Open Ocean 14, and immediately got comfortable because of the wider tail, huge volume and terrific stability. I LOVE the board, but I am getting the itch to try something else.
I am wondering if anyone can comment on the stability differences between the F16 and the V2?
We paddle and downwind Lake Michigan, and some bigger inland lakes here in Michigan.

I am 6'4" tall and 225lbs.

Thanks.
SIC F14
SIC Bullet  V2 (A.S.S.)
SIC Recon 11.11
NSP Open Ocean 14'x28"

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2017, 04:46:13 PM »
I'll be very surprised if the big guys here don't say that the F16 is significantly more stable than the Bullet 14v2. The F16 is 323 litres, is 2ft longer, and is the same width. The Bullet 14v2 isn't really a board for someone well over 200lbs IMO. And a rudder on it makes no sense to me. You'd be wanting to stand too far forward to get on the bump too much of the time.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 04:48:32 PM by Area 10 »

Eagle

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2426
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2017, 04:56:45 PM »
All the bigger DW lads prefer the F16 over the Bullet 14V2 with ASS.  More stable more glide and faster overall.  DW only the F16 and Bullet 17.4 are excellent.  The steering on the 14 is too far forward to be used on a steep and deep DW run.   ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2017, 05:56:03 PM »
There is the F14 wide glide. SIC lent me one at the Pacific Paddle Games for the horrifically chopped up distance race. It had steering and I liked it a lot. I've never tried one for downwind, but it was super stable and the steering was a lifesaver in that slop. I was one of the few mid-pack people that didn't paddle most of the race on their knees.

But my goto boards for downwinding are the 17.5 bullet and the F16. Bullets are faster, F16 is easier. More stable, fits into troughs easier, steers quicker. Bullets are more challenging, but worth the effort to learn them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 05:57:52 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

iDownwind

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2017, 06:09:30 PM »
I'll be very surprised if the big guys here don't say that the F16 is significantly more stable than the Bullet 14v2. The F16 is 323 litres, is 2ft longer, and is the same width. The Bullet 14v2 isn't really a board for someone well over 200lbs IMO. And a rudder on it makes no sense to me. You'd be wanting to stand too far forward to get on the bump too much of the time.

I was hoping that may be the case. The F16 seems like it would be a great board for what we do, but no one around here has ever been on one, let alone seen one. The V2 14' was fun, but only if it was blowing 25+ on an inland lake, with up to 3 foot waves. I had a blast in those conditions. But we don't get that type opportunity often enough, and so the V2 just sits because of the lack of volume for my size. The A.S.S. steering is just located in a poor place for me too, as I would have to stand with my foot just ahead of the tiller, or right on it (painful). I am thinking the tiller placement on the F16 will be more user friendly?  We get a fair amount of days where the wind is a good direction, but only blowing 12-15mph. Will the F16 be better in that lighter wind vs. a 14'?
SIC F14
SIC Bullet  V2 (A.S.S.)
SIC Recon 11.11
NSP Open Ocean 14'x28"

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2017, 06:10:54 PM »
PonoBill - Was paddling in your knees not penalised? It's a lot easier and faster (upwind, crosswind) to paddle on your knees in hell conditions - if you have practiced. Has anyone ever been disqualified for knee paddling? If not, I might just start racing again because upwind over about 15 knots it's pretty easy to beat someone standing if you are kneeling ;)

iDownwind

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017, 06:16:41 PM »
@PonoBill

I actually have an F14, but it doesn't have the steering. I rarely use it anymore because I found the NSP Open Ocean 14' to be an amazing board for MOST of what I go out in. I always say I am keeping the F14 for the really wild and chopped up days, but the reality is that the NSP has been really good to me. I am hoping to find an F16 with the F.A.S.T system, if possible. Do you think the location of the tiller is more user friendly on the F16 vs. the 14' V2? If the tiller is located in such away that I won't have to stand on the tiller constantly, I may go with the A.S.S. on and F16....
SIC F14
SIC Bullet  V2 (A.S.S.)
SIC Recon 11.11
NSP Open Ocean 14'x28"

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017, 06:37:28 PM »
I'll be very surprised if the big guys here don't say that the F16 is significantly more stable than the Bullet 14v2. The F16 is 323 litres, is 2ft longer, and is the same width. The Bullet 14v2 isn't really a board for someone well over 200lbs IMO. And a rudder on it makes no sense to me. You'd be wanting to stand too far forward to get on the bump too much of the time.

I was hoping that may be the case. The F16 seems like it would be a great board for what we do, but no one around here has ever been on one, let alone seen one. The V2 14' was fun, but only if it was blowing 25+ on an inland lake, with up to 3 foot waves. I had a blast in those conditions. But we don't get that type opportunity often enough, and so the V2 just sits because of the lack of volume for my size. The A.S.S. steering is just located in a poor place for me too, as I would have to stand with my foot just ahead of the tiller, or right on it (painful). I am thinking the tiller placement on the F16 will be more user friendly?  We get a fair amount of days where the wind is a good direction, but only blowing 12-15mph. Will the F16 be better in that lighter wind vs. a 14'?
Because of your weight, I think you'll prefer an UL board in pretty much all DW conditions. Upwind is another matter - big boards take a bit of pushing upwind. I do UW/DW circuits in 15 knots all the time. These days I'm preferring my 16x24.5" for it. The top speeds of the bigger boards are higher, even if average speeds can sometimes be slightly slower (mostly they aren't though). I have no idea why anyone over 200lbs wouldn't paddle an UL board. It's the obvious thing to do. You might find you are better off without the rudder in light winds. Rudders don't hold course very well unless you have your foot on the steering arm, which means you *have* to use the rudder to steer, and even a little play can be enough to screw up your progress in small stuff when you have to stand a long way forward to catch the bump. Don't listen to all the "you have to have a rudder on a UL board" stuff. Mostly these people have never used a UL board without one in a wide enough variety of conditions to see the advantages. Of course they will now all say that I'm wrong. But try for yourself - it might solve quite a few of the problems you are having, and the new F16s have a fixed finbox as well as a rudder so you can try both. Remember - the smaller the bump, the further forward you go to catch it. Don't be afraid to get your heels where the tiller arm pivot point is if it's 15 knots or less and you are in shallow water. Of course, if you are on a Maliko run in 30 knots then rudder away to your heart's content.

Big boards take big power though - or a very skilful less powerful person. So don't expect that a big board will always make you faster, or will meet all your desires. They can be a bit Of a handful Sometimes. But once you get used to an UL board, a 14 seems a bit...uninspiring and compromised.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2017, 08:08:31 PM »
A10, I theory they'd be DQed. in practice the PPG guys didn't care much about what went on in the open class, and the conditions for the distance race were so gnarly that pro and semi-pro people were falling off their boards everywhere. The more serious paddlers kept legitimate, just taking the falls and hopping back up. The Wide Glide F14 is 30" and felt even wider. I didn't have much trouble staying up once I got going. I fell four times for the entire race.

iDown, the standard F14 is not the same as the wide. I probably would have bailed on the race if I hadn't been able to borrow that. My other choice was my Blackfish. That would have sucked.

Not gonna do A10's dance on unlimiteds and rudders other than to note of the thirty or forty hugely experienced unlimited paddlers I know in Maui, not a single one uses a fixed fin, and if you suggested they should, they'd laugh at you. Even Jeremy Riggs, the undisputed master of fixed fin 14's, uses a rudder on his ridiculously skinny custom bullet.  I favor a fin box on my unlimiteds, but it's there in case I whack something. If you have a fin box the trailing edge of the rudder bends into the box instead of punching through the board skin.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

laszlo

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2017, 09:20:29 PM »
I happen to own both those boards, an F16 and new Bullet14V2 and use both downwinding in the Gorge. My V2 does not have steering, so I can't comment on that, but there is no question that the F16 is much more stable! I got the V2 for lighter wind in which I expected it to be faster than the F16, which it is, but at the cost of becoming harder to balance once the wind picks up and conditions get choppy. I find I choose the F16 if there is any chance the conditions might go in that direction.

Eagle

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2426
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2017, 09:45:28 PM »
Def get a F16 for more stability in steep and deep -> or B17.4 for more speed open ocean.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

supuk

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2017, 11:44:07 PM »
I think the thing is with A10's 16 is its is fairly different to most unlimited and handles very different which is why it doesn't really need a rudder. I have been commented that they though it had a rudders they way it turned on runs and were very surprised when they saw it was a fixey. It would be very interesting to go back to back with that and a f16 with both a fixed and a rudder. Since going to unlimited I realy can't see a reson to paddle anything else unless you are very small and don't have much power or just fancy a change.

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2017, 12:22:05 AM »
Not gonna do A10's dance on unlimiteds and rudders other than to note of the thirty or forty hugely experienced unlimited paddlers I know in Maui, not a single one uses a fixed fin, and if you suggested they should, they'd laugh at you. Even Jeremy Riggs, the undisputed master of fixed fin 14's, uses a rudder on his ridiculously skinny custom bullet.  I favor a fin box on my unlimiteds, but it's there in case I whack something. If you have a fin box the trailing edge of the rudder bends into the box instead of punching through the board skin.
You didn't read my post carefully enough. I DID NOT  say that rudders weren't useful in Hawaii and similar places. In fact I said the opposite. What I am disputing is the cost/benefit ratio of a rudder in short period shallow water conditions like there are in many OTHER places in the world. But you are exactly the person I was talking about in my post - how much time in how many different environments have you spent paddling a fixed fin UL board? Exactly. Come back when you've put in some proper hours on one in the kinds of conditions I'm talking about. And ideally make sure it's a board designed to be used as a fixed fin, as supuk says. THEN you will see what I am talking about.

Part of the problem that the OP was talking about is that the rudder mech prevents you from getting forward comfortably in small downbreeze conditions (10-15 knots) like so many people predominately paddle in. This has in part unfairly led to the reputation, I believe, that UL boards can only be used in big downwind conditions. If you get rid of the rudder mech so you can dance all over the board easily, and get waaay forward to get on the little bumps, they work surprisingly well. But if you stand with your foot on the tiller you'll catch nothing at all.

So, please free your mind to the possibility that people outside your immediate circle are coping with conditions that are very different from yours, and that they are finding that Hawaiiian set-ups might not be ideal for them. Indeed, supuk has taken it one step further and actually built boards specifically designed for these European-type conditions, an I can tell you that they make downwinding much easier and more pleasant in them than your fat floaty high-volume Hawaiian boats.

So, once again, in case you missed it: in places that suit rudders, use a rudder. But not all conditions suit a rudder. In those conditions, use a fixed fin. There is no piece of equipment anywhere of any type that is optimal for ALL conditions, and it's no different with a rudder (or a fixed fin).

Off-Shore

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1663
    • View Profile
    • HksupaHK SUP and Downwinding
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2017, 01:46:56 AM »
I have a Maui-made SIC F16v3 custom with steering and a SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC. I also have paddled one of our groups Bullet 14v2 many times and here are my observations. I am 5-11 and 185lbs.

1. I don't find much difference in stability of the F16 vs the Bullet 14s

2. I prefer the F16 on windier days. It catches more and is less difficult to keep on the glide

3. I only use the steering when the conditions are groomed or big when you have time and stability to use it. Otherwise I ignore completely.

4. I use a staggered stance to get forward on the board. So my left foot may be on the tiller but I can stand forward of the tiller with my right foot to catch a glide and then take one step back and be in staggered stance with the right foot behind the tiller without ever moving the left foot off the tiller. I admit, this took a long time to figure out but now I don't ever really think about it. At first I was always standing on the tiller and stubbing my toes and cutting my feet on the cables, so I generally always wear booties.

5. The F16 has much more rocker than a Bullet 14 V2. Again this is good in bigger conditions if you are not able to dance around the board and let's you stay up front more.

https://youtu.be/kluxTaot3G4

https://youtu.be/gJRjFQeLC7Y

I have yet to do a vid of one minute on the V2




SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

yugi

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
    • View Profile
Re: Question about stability. F16 vs. 14' Bullet V2
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2017, 03:11:48 AM »
It's clear ocean racers are all on UL boards with steering. I guess a 17'+ board needs one.

I really like the idea of a 16' that's nimble enough to manage without. I like the running around on the board to make it turn. It's an integral part of the sport IMO. Getting better at that is what turns me on to the sport. I like simplicity in sports gear. I'm a telemarker and a singlespeeder. Totally ludicrous from a performance perspective but way more fun.

Fixie SUP. Yes! The term is coined.

The ASS on a Bullet 14 is a real pain in the ass. It's in the way unless it's 20+ knots. At which point foot steering the board is almost more fun.

The RC rudder could be really interesting and free up the deck and your feet from needing to be in one place. That could be a huge development in the sport. I hear you that a rudder may put you in the better place quicker. Plus those cross wind slogs may become less of a pain in the back.

There is one more obstacle for ruddered boards, at least where I ride. Summer weeds.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal