Lookers versus Posters.

[leecea]

Most SUP paddlers (or any paddlers) are pretty casual and do it for fun.  I think the 'zone is a bit of bubble - seems like the demographic is older, male, and highly committed to the sport.

I just read a paddling report from 2014 that estimated 2.8 m people participated in SUP but the average number of trips a SUP paddler takes is 5/year with over 50% doing 3 or less.  11% of paddlers are out there more than 24 times per year.  5% are over 45.  Roughly 50/50 men and women.  So if you figure the demographic here is older, mostly male, and SUPing a lot, there isn't that big a pool. 

[seadart]

Maybe there would be more women participating but ... the first time I came to this site the top post was "Hot Chicks on SUPs" and I noticed it had hundreds of posts.  I would think that would tend to turn off a lot of women who SUP.   Where I surf about 30-50% of the SUP surfers are women,  and the best local SUP surfers are women. 

[ruralwaters]

Maybe there would be more women participating but ... the first time I came to this site the top post was "Hot Chicks on SUPs" and I noticed it had hundreds of posts.  I would think that would tend to turn off a lot of women who SUP.   Where I surf about 30-50% of the SUP surfers are women,  and the best local SUP surfers are women.

Agree!   The Hot Chicks tread and stalwart defense of it by core board members turned me off to this board.

[SUP Sports ®]

Most SUP paddlers (or any paddlers) are pretty casual and do it for fun.  I think the 'zone is a bit of bubble - seems like the demographic is older, male, and highly committed to the sport.

I just read a paddling report from 2014 that estimated 2.8 m people participated in SUP but the average number of trips a SUP paddler takes is 5/year with over 50% doing 3 or less.  11% of paddlers are out there more than 24 times per year.  5% are over 45.  Roughly 50/50 men and women.  So if you figure the demographic here is older, mostly male, and SUPing a lot, there isn't that big a pool.

Definitely a bubble...our clients are split fairly evenly between the sexes...and, I suspect that it's pretty much like that for most SUP retailers...



http://supsports.com/stoked/stoked-life-clients/

Bean recently highlighted the discrepancy in M/F posting ratios on this thread...

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,29425.0.html

Re: Team Riders
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 04:17:41 AM »

=SUPsports
Kind of interesting that our board clients are mostly split between the sexes...but, for some reason this forum and others don't reflect true participation in the sport...lately from reading the posts here, you'd surmise that most SUP enthusiasts are upper 60's to almost over the hill...god bless their souls...but, it's not just a male geezer sport...;-)

None of my local paddle buddies (guys and girls) post on the Zone, they essentially think we're full of shit.  But, we know that's not the case, the SUP knowledge that's shared here can not be found anywhere else in one place.  Alright, time to hit the beach!

[LaPerouseBay]

Maybe there would be more women participating but ... the first time I came to this site the top post was "Hot Chicks on SUPs" and I noticed it had hundreds of posts.  I would think that would tend to turn off a lot of women who SUP.   Where I surf about 30-50% of the SUP surfers are women,  and the best local SUP surfers are women.

Agree!   The Hot Chicks thread and stalwart defense of it by core board members turned me off to this board.

Indeed.  I remember that "defense."  If I was a chick, I'd move on too. 

That thread is still front and center in  "general" rather than down in "random" where it belongs.  IMHO, of course...

That thread is another clear example of objectification in the media and it has consequences.  Why go there?  Clickbait?  Say it 'aint so...

http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2016/spring/rooney

I'm a guy but I've been trying to get the "hot chicks" thread deleted for years. We will never have much female input here until we get rid of the silly high school boy content.

The struggle is real. Welcome.

I don't mind the hot chicks pictures, but some of the vulgar comments about the chicks are downright disturbing.  As in the recent "meat curtains" vulgarity.  Definitely not for minors.  Makes you wonder how adults can be so sophomoric, or is that just moronic.

I'm a man as well, and glad I'm not the only that objects to that thread.  for me it's not the nudity or prudishness, it's that viewing women in that shallow superficial way messes up my relationships. No matter how subtle it conditions men to believe they will be happier if their woman looks like that, and conditions women to believe they will be happier of they look like that.  So to often men end up coveting other "hot" women, and women hate their bodies.  From what I've seen in other cultures us men are not hard wired to find magazine cover girls attractive, it's programming. I can only imagine what the massive amount of photos and videos on the Internet does to young people, I know I was certainly confused in high school.

I hope to see more women and feminine energy on this forum and in the water.

Sigh...yeah I've objected to that thread as well, and been roundly attacked for it. So strong were the objections to my viewpoint that I wondered if I was being over-sensitive. So I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. Her verdict was succinct: "sad wank&rs".

It's a great shame there aren't more women in this forum. I've learnt a lot from several in the past, including (if I remember their handles correctly), JillRide and Celeste, whose contributions have been outstanding IMO.

So glad this topic was started. I am female. Middle aged.  Pretty open minded. Think all of this hot chix stuff is pretty juvenile. Affects the whole attitude of the zone.  Hopefully it will fade with time as the forum evolve. You know, we can all act like grown ups?

Another vote against the hot chicks thread.  Its not that important if men are offended or like it.  Its obviously sexist and exclusionary towards women.  Would any respectful person talk about 'hot chicks' at a dinner with both men and women present.

The insistence on maintaining the thread demonstrates a self-indulgent nature.

I do agree that the thread is offensive.  Of course I can choose not to read it, and I don't normally.  I was curious enough about it a few days ago to check it out, and my distaste was confirmed.  Caught the "meat curtain" comment, but I don't want to single that out, as so much of the thread is offensive and objectifying. 
How many of the men on this forum could be categorized as "hot dudes"?  My guess is that the men and women of this forum come in many different shapes, ages, and skill levels.  We're here because we love SUP, because we want to learn and share knowledge, and because we want to share our interest with people who can relate.  I wish the "hot chicks" thread would disappear because it is immediately off-putting to females.  If the true goal is inclusion, than yes, maybe it's time to close that thread.
That being said, from what I've read on the forum, this is mostly a cool bunch of guys who are funny, helpful, and knowledgable.  I've also seen posts from Jillride that are just as great----and surely there are other women posting who remain incognito.

I'm also in favour of the "hot chicks" thread being deleted. I appreciate the female body but that thread definitely isn't doing the zone any favours and needs to be gone. Old school and tasteless in large part.

I love the female form as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty sure the "Hot Chicks" thread is turning off women from joining. I'd rather not have this forum turn into a sausage fest.

I'm not being PC. If guys want to post pictures like that, maybe Instagram is a better place? That's fine with me. I just want all points of view. There are some smart women out there, and this place should be welcoming.

I dislike when people use the Hot Chicks thread to post photos for ridicule, especially those showing women heavier or less fit than the typical "hot chick".  The Amy Schumer photo comes to mind.  Nobody should ridicule anyone trying standup.  The last thing I'd want to have happen is for a woman (or man) to see that ridicule here, and become self-conscious or discouraged from pursuing standup, or participating here. 

With the typical Hot Chicks post, there's at least an argument to make that there's some potential benefit of seeing admiration for fit women performing at high levels.  Many photos show women far more muscular than is true for any typical standard of "hot".  Many also at least imply admiration for women being physically skilled and aggressive, which is also a positive change from earlier norms.  Whether those justify the thread--or whether the thread needs any justification anyway-- is another matter.

But with the ridicule posts (and it's clear they're being posted for ridicule) there's no offsetting argument or benefit.

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You have already heard one female zone member express very clear dislike of that thread on this one. I suggest that we listen to her rather than try to defend the indefensible. I'm not going to blame anyone for posting there (including your bikini-fest videos, Robert). But times change and we should too.

I'm impressed by and grateful to you guys who are advocating for more inclusion, and for the changes that might be made to help with that.  That's forward-thinking, as well as welcoming.  Really cool.
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I'm new to the forum, I'm a male and I posted and enjoyed some pix of "hot SUPer" but it's true that the Zone would gain of getting rid of it.

I enjoy reading most of this forum and don't care about the gender of members.

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The insistence on maintaining the thread demonstrates a self-indulgent nature.

I do agree that the thread is offensive.
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Here, here....well said, and hopefully those able to make the appropriate changes do so...sooner than later.

To borrow from the past...."Admin, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Standup Zone, if you seek inclusion of all: Come here to this thread! Mr. Admin, open this forum! Mr. Admin, tear down this thread!"

I have to say that initially I didn’t mind the “hot chicks” thread. I’m not sure of the right words as I don’t want to be offensive, but to see an attractive, fit woman on a stand up board in a beautiful setting is very appealing to the eye. I just don’t see anything wrong with that.

But there are a couple of things come to mind that I really, really didn’t like. The first is a while back there was a picture posted of what to me looked like a very young girl squatting on the hand rails in an elevator. Maybe I’m wrong and maybe she wasn’t as young as I thought, but that particular posting bothered me. The other thing is when people post shots of overweight women and make fun of them. I find that distasteful and offensive and I think it says a lot more about the person posting the picture than it does about the woman in the photo. And yes, I agree that some of the other comments are also rude and distasteful. No place for any of that.

My wife is not a paddler, so she doesn’t come on this forum. I nevertheless mentioned this discussion to her and asked if a thread like the “hot chicks” thread would stop her from coming to, or participating in the forum. She said it would not, and that she would just choose to ignore that particular thread.

Having said all the above, if having this thread is in fact keeping women away from this site then it probably should be taken off. And further, if the women on this forum find it objectionable, then maybe it’s time.

Here's the thing....

I surf with several women who would be great participants here, but because of that one thread, and IMO the poor taste (or maybe posting immaturity) it portrays of some of the membership here, I've yet to tell them about this forum.

Sure, maybe "one bad apple/thread shouldn't spoil the bunch", but the last thing I'd want to have happen, is for them to log in here when that particular thread has worked its way back to be at the top of the list, have them open it, and risk the chance of them being offended, or think of me as someone who thinks that that type of objectification of women that it has been lowered to is somehow ok.

So rather than having to start explaining, "Oh and btw, there's this thread in there that you probably shouldn't open, or if you do, don't judge the entire place by it"....I simply say nothing about the SUZ to them.  Sad, but it's just easier, and safer all the way around.

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Thanks spirit4earth for starting this discussion.  As much as I am curious about which board is best or fastest or which paddle has the most efficient design, I would much rather talk about deeper topics of relating and how we can include everyone and create a place where all feel welcome.  For me that's what I am really after anyway, connection and being present, surfing is a fun way for me be there.

I appreciate that men need a place where they talk among themselves away from women, and at the same time whatever female we are venting about is someone's mother, daughter, sister, niece, grandmother, and/or wife.  I have no ill will or blame or shame for anyone posting in that thread, my hope is that we can stop and realize how the women in our lives would feel if they saw those posts.
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Because of this discussion I’ve thought a fair bit about the “hot chicks” thread and how I feel about it. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m now definitely in the camp of wanting it removed. It is not because there are pictures of beautiful women, tastefully done. No, what I don’t like about the hot chicks thread is the kind of postings it attracts. Some are rude and vulgar and definitely in poor taste. We should be a forum that is inclusive and encouraging and some of the posts in that threat are, as Spirit4earth mentioned earlier, appealing to the lowest common denominator. The "good old boys" type of humour, if it can be called humour. There should be no place for that here.The other reason I’d like it removed is if women on this forum find it offensive, then out of respect for them I think it should come down.

I don’t know Spirt4earth. Have never met her but have carried on a few brief conversations with her over this forum. She strikes me as someone who is pretty level headed and who also seems to have a pretty good sense of humour. If someone like that takes offense, that makes me sit up and take notice.

I know Spirit you didn’t expect the conversation to go this way when you put up this posting, but I do think it is a worth while discussion to have. And thank you for participating in this subject, and also for participating in the forum as a whole and giving us all a woman’s perspective. I for one would not want to lose you, or any other women from this forum.

i would have no issue with the loss of the hot chicks thread, and with a general effort that content be considerate that women should feel welcome here.

and i have +1'ed several pics! bad boy!

The single most widely viewed thread on the zone is click bait and very demeaning towards women. I just looked at it and the last three pictures are classless, tasteless and are chosen solely to illicit the idiotic comments that are sure to follow. It's not just a few pictures like this, but many. Men over 40 posting the pictures too. I don't get it. I'm not into censorship either, but the thread is very classless for the most part.

To Weasels Wake - I can only speak for myself, but to me this has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with what’s right and wrong. More about that in a couple of minutes.

And to Stoneaxe, I understand the concerns about censorship. That is a legitimate concern, but even in the most democratic of societies there needs to be some form of censorship on certain things. I’m not using this as a parallel, but we have laws against hate speech. That is a form of censorship. And there are other similar type laws that society needs to function. And who gets to decide is always another concern. I do not agree that it should always be the majority. It once again comes down to right and wrong. So how do you decide that? Well, to me one test for this particular issue is would I want my wife or daughter to be seen in some of ways that are portrayed here. And the answer to that is definitely not. Take a look at a couple of the most recent postings. Women with their asses and other parts sticking up in the air with the picture being shot from behind. That’s just crude. This is not a men’s magazine nor do I think it should be. Another example is full, frontal nudity being posted recently. And when it was taken down, the poster said he knew it wouldn’t last. Well if you know it’s not appropriate, why post it?

 Also, would I want my overweight daughter to have her picture put up and then have a bunch of men write in caustic, crude remarks about her? No, I would not.

And sorry for the term for those who are into being politically correct, but I am sure we’ve all run into the “ball buster” type females. This doesn’t strike me like that in the least. It strikes me that we have some women who find this offensive. Does that in and of itself mean the forum should come down? That is a consideration, but I agree with you here Stoneaxe that this alone should not mean it comes down. I just think it should come down because of the type of postings it attracts. I would not want my wife or daughter portrayed the way some women are portrayed in this forum and I believe it’s just wrong. Again, good old boys humour. People who think that cracking jokes at someone else’s expense is O.K., and it’s not O.K. and under no circumstances will it ever be O.K.

I have to admit I didn't care for the latest postings despite having coffee come through my nose from one. I definitely hate the body shaming stuff being the dad of a girl that was bullied because she got mom's height and dads width. But I also know that even she as an adult wouldn't give a shit what a bunch of old men that are being juvenile think.

At the same time maybe it is time to move on. The zone's history has always been more of a boys club that paralleled the sport somewhat. The sport has certainly moved beyond those days when the number of men far outweighed the women. Time for the zone to catch up? I'd much prefer to see women posting their own pics and vids of great sessions than have guys posting pics of women's asses.

And you're right. I'd like my granddaughter to see the zone as a great place to find women she can emulate rather than pictures that bring question to her value because she may not have a certain bodyshape. My same feeling about the checkout counter mags but that's a different if related issue.

 

[spirit4earth]

Let's not go down the "hot chicks" road again! Common decency would have that thread in the Random category at least, but if the PTB can't see that, why waste the energy on it?
What I find more intimidating and sometimes discouraging about the Zone is how most of the posters seem to have multiple boards, and expensive ones at that.  This can be informative yet depressing to someone who can barely scrap together the money for one decent board.  It does seem to be a forum for those with a lot of money for toys.

I like this forum a lot, though.  It's educating, entertaining, and often inspiring.  I'm happy to be a member!  Now, if I could just get that board.....

[PonoBill]

Spirit, where are you located? I'm a big believer in paying forward. Glad to give you a board if you aren't too far from Hood River or Maui.

People choose the kind of social media they participate in by how it connects to their interests and the depth and degree they pursue them. Assuming you know how that works and what it means is just projecting your particular biases, and has nothing to do with who would be here and what they would be like if your biases were accommodated. Explain if you would why Google Plus is 78% men and Instagram is 68% women. Explain, without resorting to sexism, why Pinterest is 84% women, with a majority having incomes greater than $75,000 per year.

Beasho might be able to scrape together something statistical, and I could lie about it convincingly, but for most of those who object, your pronunciations will be anecdotal, unsupported by any facts other than ones you dream up. So give up on the "if we build it, they will come" argument. It's nonsense. Stick with "change it because I don't like it". At least that will be real.

[spirit4earth]

Spirit, where are you located? I'm a big believer in paying forward. glad to give you a board if you aren't too far from Hood River or Maui.

Bill, that is so kind of you!  I would humbly accept, but I'm not in your area yet.  I'm in western North Carolina, heading to DC May 15, and then quite probably heading west to visit friends in Seattle and Portland.  I had wanted to stop in Hood River because you've mentioned it so many times---it's far beyond my beginner skill level, but I want to see the area and gain inspiration for my golden years!
Again, thank you so very much for the offer!

[PonoBill]

Lots of beginner paddling in the Gorge, and you might surprise yourself. Difficulty of downwinding in the Gorge is self-selected. You can hug the Oregon side and ride little bumps, or even no bumps, head out a little and get some heavier stuff, go out to the middle to go nutz, and slide over to the Washington side at Swell City and get some overhead rollers. If you come here, PM me and I'll set you up. Standard zoner thing. I've had plenty of people on the Zone help me, always glad to pay those favors forward.

[spirit4earth]

Spirit, where are you located? I'm a big believer in paying forward. Glad to give you a board if you aren't too far from Hood River or Maui.

People choose the kind of social media they participate in by how it connects to their interests and the depth and degree they pursue them. Assuming you know how that works and what it means is just projecting your particular biases, and has nothing to do with who would be here and what they would be like if your biases were accommodated. Explain if you would why Google Plus is 78% men and Instagram is 68% women. Explain, without resorting to sexism, why Pinterest is 84% women, with a majority having incomes greater than $75,000 per year.

Beasho might be able to scrape together something statistical, and I could lie about it convincingly, but for most of those who object, your pronunciations will be anecdotal, unsupported by any facts other than ones you dream up. So give up on the "if we build it, they will come" argument. It's nonsense. Stick with "change it because I don't like it". At least that will be real.

I agree with this, too.  I would think that people wind up here because we've developed an interest in paddle boarding, and a curiosity about the sport, the gear, or the people who share our interest.  Many of you are here because you're good friends with other members and it's a way of keeping in touch.  Is It possible to lasso some ethereal change that might make more people post or get involved?  I doubt it.  If you change something, there might be people who feel more comfortable here, but there might also be people who feel less so.  It would be like a cat trying to catch a laser.  It can't be all things to all paddlers.  Anyway, I like it, and I'm about as different from the core group as you can get.

[spirit4earth]

Lots of beginner paddling in the Gorge, and you might surprise yourself. Difficulty of downwinding in the Gorge is self-selected. You can hug the Oregon side and ride little bumps, or even no bumps, head out a little and get some heavier stuff, go out to the middle to go nutz, and slide over to the Washington side at Swell City and get some overhead rollers. If you come here, PM me and I'll set you up. Standard zoner thing. I've had plenty of people on the Zone help me, always glad to pay those favors forward.

I definitely will let you know if I make it out there!  It sounds like great fun just to watch---and to get wet!  Thank you again!