Author Topic: Downwinding - How to unstick a 14' board in 25 knot offshore conditions? - vid  (Read 7938 times)

Eagle

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The Bullet 14 - M14 and BR were designed for open ocean.  And that was open ocean.  In the vid it looked like real nice conditions for boards of that ilk.  No one commented that any board works well in all conditions A10.  But certainly conditions looked good for those DW boards.  I just know in conditions we get here - my boards unstick.  Seems Robert designed that BR for stuff like that and no one is getting on his case.  The question was "how to unstick?"  And he would be best to provide input as the designer for that board.

Actually sounds like Robert suggested the BR30.  supuk gave his input - as well as badger - and yugi.  We are trying to help solve the "unsticking" problem.  Do you have any thoughts that would help?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 11:29:49 AM by Eagle »
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Luc Benac

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There can be all sorts of effects going on beneath the surface of the water that can hinder planning.

That is very true.
Recently I was paddling close to shore, with some very small bump, incoming tide and light wind at my back not even a downbreezer but kind of.
Water looked nice all around and was just cruising nicely at reasonable speed, catching the small ripples/bumps.
I hit the underwater sand bar that we know is around and while the surface of the water did not change at all suddenly my speed dropped by 3 km/h without me noticing anything if it has not been for the GPS. Before I knew it the board was caught in what I believe was an eddy caused by the tide on the sand bank and the back of the board was pushed forward to the right making the board look like a compass needle going to the North...
It was easy to correct simply by paddling on the opposite side for a while but looking at the surface of the water I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.



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Eagle

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Here is a great vid that OS linked showing Robert on what looks like the BR27.  He had to use a lot more paddle power as the wind looked to be a lot less.  I think Robert won his age in the M2O on his BR28 design.  You can learn so much watching him paddle in the swell from that boat perspective.   ;)

https://youtu.be/AWTZ2oREPOE
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PonoBill

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The way to "unstick" a 14 is to get it all in the water and get the tail light--in other words, head to the nose. You increase the waterline, increase the likelihood that the center of gravity of the board will be in the trough long enough for energy to get transferred and prevent stalling. If the board design enables you to hang out there, then it's the easiest way.

I routinely stand in front of the deck pad on my Blackfish, trying to catch the bigger, faster swells.

Once you are in one, you still need to hang out there until you get well down into the trough, then move back so you can steer. Most of the 14' boards I've tried for downwind don't steer well from the nose or even a bit forward of the handle. the exception might be wider ones, since the rail is more likely to be curved.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Eagle

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Yep 100% spot on PB - on my M14 I stand just in front of the handle - which is way way forward.  Drop down the swell until just the verge of pearling or as close as I dare -> then step back on the wave push and gun it max.  For those flatter longer period waves - that looks a lot harder to do though.  But still that is the basic concept and application that works best for me.  If I just hang out back and stay stationary - major stall city - and no "unsticking" action for me.  Feels kinda like being stuck in mud dragging a bucket.  Is way tippier up front though -> but a ton more fun. 

The more breeze pushing the better obviously.  We do not get breeze like that combined with long period swell.  Ours is steep short period like you have seen me post in the JR vid where Norm gets his nose sky high on the backside of a steep bump.  Ours is more bucking bronco type wave action - where it it very hard to relax and rest - unless you sit.  But look here - even in summer the water is so cold Jeremy keeps his legs out of the water during a break at Watts.  Haha!  Gotta love glacier water up in Squamish.   ;D ;D ;D
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Off-Shore

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Thanks for all the comments. I do think it is more about my poor technique than the board... So what I am reading here is stand further forward, paddle harder, move your feet, stand further back, ... so it's dancing, I guess..  ;D

Funny thing happened today. Having had that experience this past Monday, my buddy and I decided with another 25 knot+ day forecast this morning that we'd take the unlimiteds out, although the wind was Northerly and the run we do (the Port Shelter Express) does not have any ocean swell (i.e. all windswell)..

I was on the borrowed SICMaui Bullet 17-4 and he on the NSP 17-10 x 24"...In this short period wind-blow swell, well.. :o... well you get the picture... seems we brought the wrong boards again.. and I had borrowed a friends Bullet 14v2 too and had it on the roof of my car...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 09:00:41 PM by Off-Shore »
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Area 10

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Maybe it's nothing to do with the boards or with you. Maybe you've just had a couple of runs where the conditions weren't favourable. It happens. Sometimes the conditions can look great on a run you've done a gazillion times before but for some reason it just doesn't deliver. Currents or obstacles underneath the surface, tidal effects, backwash, crossed-up swells, even wake from shipping, can all screw with how easy it is to get a board planing.

Having said that, I've never been a great fan of the "the length of my board doesn't fit the swell" theory. I use UL boards all the time in the shortest period dribble imaginable, and they work fine. You do have to get further forward than the rudder mech seems to allow though. I had to remove the rudder steering arm on my Naish 17 because I could only catch the local bumps if I stood where the rudder arm is, rather than behind it. So I was constantly mashing my toes. As soon as I had a clear deck I could catch anything I wanted no matter how small or crappy the conditions, whereas before I could catch nothing at all unless the wind was blowing a hoolie and the swell was waist-high or above.

So positioning on the board is indeed critical, as noted above. Sometimes if you are used to paddling a UL you are so used to seeing masses of board in front of you that you tend to stand too far back when you switch to a 14. And sometimes if you paddle a ruddered UL in mildish conditions, the rudder mech encourages you to stand too far back.

It's one of my downwinding "rules": the harder the bumps are to catch, the further forward you go.

Conversely of course: the easier they are to catch, the further back you stand. I've had conditions where the wind was so strong over shallow water that you didn't need to paddle at all. You'd just get blown into the bumps. The paddle is just used for bracing and turning. When it gets like that you can stand with your back foot over the fin pretty much constantly.

But other times on exactly the same run but with less wind, especially with tidal effects working against the wind, I've had to stand with my front foot well in front of the handle to catch the bumps, and paddle like hell (with a very forward stroke like supuk says - don't compress the board into the water, keep it light).

It's all part of the rich tapestry that is downwinding :)

Muskoka SUP

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The way to "unstick" a 14 is to get it all in the water and get the tail light--in other words, head to the nose. You increase the waterline, increase the likelihood that the center of gravity of the board will be in the trough long enough for energy to get transferred and prevent stalling. If the board design enables you to hang out there, then it's the easiest way.

I routinely stand in front of the deck pad on my Blackfish, trying to catch the bigger, faster swells.

Once you are in one, you still need to hang out there until you get well down into the trough, then move back so you can steer. Most of the 14' boards I've tried for downwind don't steer well from the nose or even a bit forward of the handle. the exception might be wider ones, since the rail is more likely to be curved.
Yup.  All true.  I would add that it's even more important the heavier one is.  Perfect counterpoint to this argument is observing the skinny ass alien walking all over whatever board he is on, and for the most part, standing on the tail.   YMMV.
It ain't over until the fat board sinks....

Muskoka SUP

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^ yes sir

I still have a bunch of these if you need one for your SUP, you pinhead.

Hmmm.  I'll FB message you Yugi.  Thanks for the kind offer. 
It ain't over until the fat board sinks....

Eagle

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Yeah - happens that way sometimes OS.  While I do ok on 14s and enjoy them immensely for planing and thrills - an UL like the 17.4 for me is much better for DW stability and average fast speed.  My balance is generally pretty crappy.

The best board for any DW 15+ kts for me is the Bullet 17.4 - even in our short period swell.  Just stops the stalling as the length bridges the highs and lows much better than any 14 can.  Does not plane much for me because of the extra wetted area - but is a safe fast ride.  The best board I have in my quiver for serious DW is my M14.  Interestinly has a similar overall nose rocker rise to the F16.  Allows me to stay crazy far forward deep down swells vs my much flatter Bullet V2.  And in some ways rides better than my V2 now that I have it dialed in better with the SIC 7.0 fin.

As noted - many here incl Jeremy recommend the F16 because of our steep waves and reflected waves.  Many locals are very disappointed that ski jump nose board is gone for 2017.  They wanted the new FAST on that board.  You are very lucky over there OS.  It looks like you get a lot of variety for DW runs over there - the water is a lot warmer - and the air is a lot warmer.  Looks like a lot of fun no matter the conditions and no matter the board.  Cheers.  :)
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yugi

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Nice wind, OS!

Sounds like a first world problem not having the the right choice of $4000 board with you.
 ;)

Back to your original question that's what's cool about being able to eeek some glides out of a 14' in the big rolley waves. With a bit extra technique it is doable. I know coz I'm blessed with tons of marginal conditions.

Once I was bummed because a couple of friends were too impatient for me to drive to our spot so I could pick up my board and I had to take my 11'4 Nalu (which i had at home) for a nice downwind. Frankly it would have taken me 20 minutes extra to get my DW board. In the end I had a blast on my 11'4 with 2 guys on top of the line 14' DW boards. Yeah, I was a bit behind but not by that much. Now I take it on purpose more often just coz it's fun. (and yellow).

Blue crab

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OS, Thanks for posting yet another great set of videos. I second A10's assertion that the concept of an UL not fitting in tight swells is a myth.  I've been riding an F16 & Bullet V1 for the last year, often in the same conditions on the same day. In the Pacific NW, we have all manner of DW conditions, groomed lake runs, open ocean-ish semi choppy conditions with large underlying swells, step peaked swells & the gorge which offers a mixed bag. While I love both boards, I think the F16 outperforms the 14 foot board in every capacity including initiating glides, sustaining glides & connecting bumps. It is even easier to surf left and right as it keeps its momentum going, pivots easily on the tail and is stable on the rails. I wouldn't sweat getting stuck on the 14 footer and just enjoy your F16!

 


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