Author Topic: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?  (Read 16219 times)

digger71

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Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« on: July 21, 2016, 04:55:04 PM »
A few years ago Jim Terrell wrote an articlehttp://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/ pushing for board size restrictions and a 4 meter board class.  His concern was mainly based on the technology advances being seen in flatwater racing, and the fear that the sport would move away from it's surfing roots and lose it's appeal to the masses.  I'm not a racer but remember thinking that if the sport moved in the direction of Olympic canoeing it would be depressing, but at least stand open ocean paddling and downwinding would retain their surfing roots. 

Then I saw this when watching the Maui 2 Molokai race highlights.  This new dugout board from DEEP that was very successful at M2M, and which might be even better suited to M2O, seems to be more "boat" and less "board".  Jimmy Casey and Matt Nottage had top 5 finishes with this, and while those guys would be fast paddling my coffee table, the fact that they chose to race this board rather than their SIC boards says something. 

I've never been on a board with such a dugout but imagine they 1) hurt like hell to fall on, 2) make it difficult to remount the board, and 3) have to have some issue with weight when that thing fills with water (I see the drain holes, but still).  Could be a very fast board if you don't plan to fall I guess.

More importantly to me though, it just doesn't look that fun to surf!  Maybe I'm wrong...

They are Aussie made and clearly those are Aussie racers using them - here is a discussion from Seabreeze about the boards
http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Deep-M20/




Kaihoe

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 05:26:28 PM »
I would argue no. 

Dugout boards like the Starboard ACE have been around for years (before Jim wrote that article) and are very effective in sloppy choppy conditions, going up wind as well as downwinding. Take a look at the videos for the King of the Cut everyone was on dugouts.

As to your specific points
1) They only hurt more if you fall on the edges, I haven't managed that in several years of paddling ACEs
2) Actually I can get on a dugout faster than a flat board. I wrap an elbow over the edge and just lever myself on. You can also catch the board as you fall by grabbing the raised edge :)
3) Yeah they really suck when they fill up and the drain hole usually only work when they are moving

And they really don't surf. When you catch a wave you have to just straight line it and hang on. Our national downwinder ended at a beach with dumping overhead, I was really happy when I didn't take the drop on the set wave I tried for as I got to the beach, but I still got worked over in the white water

PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 05:43:57 PM »
Yeah, no.

the industry has largely ignored the substantial gains available from taking footwells all the way to the skin. From my memory of calculations i did six or seven years ago, I think you get about a ten percent gain in paddle efficiency. When you lower the paddler the downward vector of applied force decreases and the rearward vector increases. You also drop the roll center lower to increase stability. The big bugaboo is drainage, which was solved ages ago in canoes and surfskis, but boardmakers ignored the high volume drainers in favor of simple holes. No idea why. Not invented here??

Jim was talking about a completely different issue, the narrowing of paddling to a smaller group of people who could win--but IMO he took a silly course to do so, making boards even shorter. and then coming up with restrictive specs that would have eliminated all innovation, or led to silly "spec" boards that skirted some element of rule loopholes. Nothing kills a sport faster.

In car racing, when the spec racers hit the track the few fans in the stands go get a beer.  No serious racer drives a spec car until you get to F1 and the like, where the rulebook is 500 pages and requires four engineers and two lawyers to understand.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 05:46:37 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

digger71

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2016, 05:55:25 PM »
I gotta admit Kaihoe I didn't realize how deep those Starboard Ace's really were - just haven't seen a lot in person around here for some reason.  And you're not kidding about King of the Cut, dugouts are everywhere! 

And Pono, JT talked about deck depth but I assume that was just a way to get the board narrower without being too tippy.  Have you seen many dugout type boards used on Maliko or in Hood River?  They may have been there and I just wasn't paying attention.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 06:02:43 PM by digger71 »

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 06:23:46 PM »
I would say this is related to what he warned us about, in regard to the recessed decks.  These particular ones would have been allowed under his proposed rules, since he saw unlimiteds as an "anything goes" category, without restrictions. But outside ULs, he wanted to limit deck recesses to 7 cm (2.76") which is way less than what these boards look like they have, and less than many recessed decks from many manufacturers. 


PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 08:08:01 PM »
There are a few boards with a little recess, but the way to really gain is to go to the skin--just a PVC sandwich.

That is one butt-ugly looking steering system by the way. they copied Mark's mistake of putting the centering spring on the tiller. silly stuff. If you put the spring on the rudder the friction of all the tiller mechanism doesn't affect centering and you can make the spring (batten) much lighter. People who have tried that used a heavy batten and didn't like the effect. I use a super-light batten and it works great, with micro adjustments to rudder trim and no stiction.  Kind of obvious, but nothing is obvious when you copy.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 08:26:08 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

yugi

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 08:50:16 PM »
Next years NSP flatwater race board has a v deep dugout. Looks like the riders feet are below water level. As close to "skin" that pono is talking about as I imagine possible.

Eagle

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 09:09:36 PM »
Yeah that steering system looks like a very cheap unsophisticated tweak and copy.  Stepping around and back looks to be somewhat uncomfortable and a tripping hazard!
Fast is FUN!   8)
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digger71

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 11:02:43 PM »
Yeah that steering system looks like a very cheap unsophisticated tweak and copy.  Stepping around and back looks to be somewhat uncomfortable and a tripping hazard!

I thought the steering cords were going to be covered in the finished product, but it seems they just stay exposed as you see them.  Here is a pretty cool 360 video of Jimmy Casey during the M2M - small sample of a 3+ hour crossing but not a lot of movement.

https://www.facebook.com/CGTing/videos/10210381165953271/

Area 10

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2016, 01:13:37 AM »
I would argue no. 

Dugout boards like the Starboard ACE have been around for years (before Jim wrote that article) and are very effective in sloppy choppy conditions, going up wind as well as downwinding. Take a look at the videos for the King of the Cut everyone was on dugouts.

As to your specific points
1) They only hurt more if you fall on the edges, I haven't managed that in several years of paddling ACEs
2) Actually I can get on a dugout faster than a flat board. I wrap an elbow over the edge and just lever myself on. You can also catch the board as you fall by grabbing the raised edge :)
3) Yeah they really suck when they fill up and the drain hole usually only work when they are moving

And they really don't surf. When you catch a wave you have to just straight line it and hang on. Our national downwinder ended at a beach with dumping overhead, I was really happy when I didn't take the drop on the set wave I tried for as I got to the beach, but I still got worked over in the white water
I paddle both dug-outs and flat decked boards. The dugout regularly leaves me with bruises from climbing back in in choppy seas - its easy to catch a knee or ankle. It is much harder and slower to get back on (actually, in) a dug-out, and some people really struggle: if you have little upper body strength then you might not actually be able to do it, at least not without considerable instruction and practice.

Beach starts are extremely awkward with dugouts.

Yes, they are awkward to surf - although the Ace actually surfs better than some flat-decked boards I've tried.

Yes, when they swamp, like when pushing through sizeable chop, you really are in a bit of a pickle. In a tight race it would pretty much be game over.

They are very awkward to carry. You have a very wide rail and a handle that is inside the cockpit so your arm/hand has to go over the rail into the board to carry it. This presses on your forearm and is unpleasant. You kinda have to carry them by the rail but this is very awkward in any kind of wind.

They are also a bit awkward to transport, and to stack on roofracks with other boards.

It is pretty uncomfortable to rest on them when you don't want to paddle. It's tough to sit on them with your feet in the water and relax. This might seem like a small point if you are a full-on racer, but if you are a recreational paddler who likes to take regular rest breaks, or likes to stop and admire the view or chat to friends, then it is surprisingly annoying in terms of day-to-day ownership.

There are also some advantages. As PB mentioned, the ability to use a shorter paddle is very useful (and faster), and if you are touring it is easy to load up the cockpit with lots of kit.

And, there are actually some times when dugouts are a total pleasure to use. If DW conditions are smallish and there is plenty of wind push, they can skip from one bump over into the trough in front, and keep going like that almost endlessly. It can be extremely exhilarating. You aren't so much riding bumps as skipping right over them. It is hugely addictive. So if you have the skills, and the conditions, they can make a typical heavily-rockered "surfboard-type" DW board seem a bit leaden. You sure have to be on your game though: it is fun but exhausting and the concentration requirements are extraordinary.

So, overall, dugouts are brutally effective race machines aimed at those who care about performance over paddling pleasure or adaptability. So pdxmike is right IMO: I think that there is a small hint here of what JT was talking about. But they are undeniably effective if you have the skills to use them. So they are here to stay.

And let's remember that the M2M wasn't actually won on a dug-out. Although if conditions had been really small it probably would have been. If you want to be fast at all costs in downbreezing conditions an Ace-like dugout is pretty much unbeatable. I can't imagine many people in the world have the skills to use a narrow pintail dugout in big conditions on eg. the M2O. So I doubt that they will ever become widely used - and the M2O is as much "an event" as a race, so paddling ease and pleasure, and safety, will always be a concern to many taking part, rather than the last fraction of one percent performance that the elites are fighting over.

 I'm becoming less and less sure that racing is going to be the dominant ethos in SUP. It seems to me that the number of people who have never raced, or who have raced and didn't like it, or who used to race but now don't, are starting to overwhelm the numbers of keen currently active racers. So it perhaps won't matter too much even if racers adopt some weird standard for their crafts. It will just accelerate the exodus from racing, and not affect the majority of SUPers much at all. JT's "zombie apocalypse" scenario perhaps overestimated the influence of racing upon the overall SUP community. Very keen racers are a very visible and vocal lot. But they really are an increasingly small fraction of the overall community.

This coming year, SIC, who have surely been one of the most race-oriented SUP outfits from the very beginning, aren't bringing out new narrower super-high spec 14ft raceboards. Instead, they are bringing out ruddered 12-6 and 14ft versions of their all-conditions, flat-decked boards (FX) that are 30" wide. The rudders won't even be race-legal (although you can fit a fixed fin too if you did want to race). So much for boards getting ever more specialised and difficult to ride...


PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2016, 07:19:41 AM »
Absolutely.

I think there will always be a significant number of racers and some race boards, but 99% of the race boards I see get used for downwinders, and are never raced. The tide could be turned by more casual races, but the big venue stuff is probably on a down cycle. Very smart of SIC to ignore the push for performance and focus on fun. You'd think the old surfboard manufacturers would have learned their lesson with the collapse of windsurfing into overpriced, overspecialized, overperfomanced(??) equiipment that required expert capabilities to use--and therefore no new blood coming into a sport that was already difficult to learn. But they surely haven't. Even their touring models are a challenge to a newb or a heavy paddler.

Motorcycle manufacturers did the same stupid thing--eliminated the entry level and focused on the most profitable models. Good for the bottom line today, death tomorrow. Royal Enfield produced 302,000 bikes in 2014, Harley-Davidson produced 270,000.

Even sillier are the race organizers, who insist that everyone have a race board to play. Instead of creating classes in the open groups where people with ordinary boards of any flavor can participate and try out the sport (and perhaps get hooked) they close the door and specify which boards are permitted and reduce the number of classes. They've also ignored the fact that people like to be recognized for their effort. What are they trying to do? Save money on five dollar trophies awarded to ten percent of the people who paid fifty to a hundred bucks to race? It's the dumbest thing I've seen since vintage car racing, where the insistance that "the cars are the stars" and only awarding trophies for random characteristics (everyone in third place gets a trophy) ignores the fact that people pay the entry fees. Naturally vintage grids in the US, where this stupid meme held sway, are shrinking rapidly as the geezers kick the bucket.

Who is the customer? What makes them happy?

I joke about being clean and sober from marketing for ten years, but I do have a marketer's outlook on motivation and inclusion. This kind of stuff is the very thing we advised clients to pay close attention to. And it works like gangbusters. the companies and entrepreneurs who ignored these obvious concepts are back living with their Mom, wondering why someone who built the same products they did got rich, while they went broke.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 07:37:35 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 09:56:07 AM »
Interesting how things evolve over time.  Once upon a time, SUP was not even a separate sport from surfing.  It WAS surfing but just opting to use a paddle instead of lying down and popping up to the feet.  Granted it was just a novelty.  There were no purposely built SUP boards and paddles were any kind of makeshift concoctions to allow a long enough stem so the rider would not remain in a bent down position.    Fast forward to 2016 and the sport is now a well-established mainstream (well almost) recreation.   The majority of paddlers are not surfers and even the main growth of the sport is in areas far from any ocean coastline.  It only stands to reason that the sport is going to be seen more and more as an extension of the paddle sports world than an extension of surfing.  With that being said, I think it’s a natural progression that boards (that are not designed to actually surf with) are going to be moving farther and farther away from the sport’s roots in surfing.  Downwind boards are their own entity but boards used in lakes and flat water bays and even coastal ocean areas where wave riding is not in the equation are going to be heading into some interesting designs. 
Jim Terrell has some interesting and controversial ideas about boards and restrictions and his fears of the sport’s direction are not unfounded, however they are inevitability where much of the sport will be headed due to the very fact it is no longer just an alternative way to surf.   He’s worried about how the sport’s move away from its surfing roots is going be less appealing to the masses but the fact is the “masses” don’t surf.  They don’t race either but I think if they live in a land locked area the surfing aspect of it is going to matter even less.   Just my two cents.

surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »
Just an idea that popped into my head.  While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun.  Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in. 



ukgm

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 10:17:51 AM »
I would argue no. 

Dugout boards like the Starboard ACE have been around for years (before Jim wrote that article) and are very effective in sloppy choppy conditions, going up wind as well as downwinding. Take a look at the videos for the King of the Cut everyone was on dugouts.

Agreed. Jim was talking about mainly flatwater narrow board racing (and had one made for a 200m race to showcase the risk). These are open water unlimited boards and not really relevant to most races.

However, his concerns (and mine that I raised in a article that followed on from his on the same site) will be potentially realised in 2017 when Starboard releases in 21.5 width sprint board.

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2016, 10:28:33 AM »
Interesting how things evolve over time.  Once upon a time, SUP was not even a separate sport from surfing.  It WAS surfing but just opting to use a paddle instead of lying down and popping up to the feet.  Granted it was just a novelty.  There were no purposely built SUP boards and paddles were any kind of makeshift concoctions to allow a long enough stem so the rider would not remain in a bent down position.    Fast forward to 2016 and the sport is now a well-established mainstream (well almost) recreation.   The majority of paddlers are not surfers and even the main growth of the sport is in areas far from any ocean coastline.  It only stands to reason that the sport is going to be seen more and more as an extension of the paddle sports world than an extension of surfing.  With that being said, I think it’s a natural progression that boards (that are not designed to actually surf with) are going to be moving farther and farther away from the sport’s roots in surfing.  Downwind boards are their own entity but boards used in lakes and flat water bays and even coastal ocean areas where wave riding is not in the equation are going to be heading into some interesting designs. 
Jim Terrell has some interesting and controversial ideas about boards and restrictions and his fears of the sport’s direction are not unfounded, however they are inevitability where much of the sport will be headed due to the very fact it is no longer just an alternative way to surf.   He’s worried about how the sport’s move away from its surfing roots is going be less appealing to the masses but the fact is the “masses” don’t surf.  They don’t race either but I think if they live in a land locked area the surfing aspect of it is going to matter even less.   Just my two cents.
surf4food--you have a way of taking the words right out of my mouth before I even know what the words should be.  You summed it up well.  I'd guess very few people who do standup here in the NW surf--and even fewer than here do in the middle 90% of the U.S.  Most here now would be kayaking if standup hadn't come along.  If a board with a deep recess works better for paddling on a lake or river, or in Puget Sound, the last thing people care about here is whether that "takes them from their surfing roots".  It's basically an unrelated sport for people who've never surfed and are in non-surf-type conditions.




 


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