Author Topic: The fun of unlimited boards  (Read 47560 times)

hefwiezen16

  • Waikiki Status
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2016, 05:11:21 PM »
With the Price of the new Starboard 14's at $3800, price isn't the issue.   The Savage River 18'6 Hollow carbon composite sandwich vac-bagged is $3300 and weighs less than a Starboard All Star or Ace 14.   I know, I have 2 Starboards and a savage river unlimited.   For mixed conditions or downwind The Starboards are the best choice.  But for glass or even semi-chop....    There's nothing like gliding along with a notable absense of "whoosh, Whooosh, Whoosh"  of an all conditions board.    Just me and the marsh, clean entry and exit with speed to spare.   I can also visit their shop in Maryland near the WV border and get customer service just like a local shaper.   I've beaten OC1's in races to-boot!!!   
     
     READ AND PONDER THIS!!!   When it comes down it,  paddlesports are all about the strength-weight ratio.   I've seen a 150 lb-ers on a 14 decimate a field, and seen the same thing from bigger guys on 14s.   In the 1st scenario, it might lead one to believe that one must be small like a distance runner to win.   The other would  indicate that one must be muscular to win.    200lbs may  be considered ideal For UL, but it all comes down to the efficiency of the engine.  In  a race, or just an outing for that matter ,that lasts several hours, All of that muscle still needs Oxygen, and the lungs Won't  increase in size like muscle can.  While I'm just 185 lbs, not the designated ideal weight for UL, I entered it in Chattajack, along with 17 others. UL is not dead!!!   
    The biggest drawback of racing UL is the inability to join a draft train.   I've got several photos of me in a race  right alongside a train of Canadian Olympians.   As per the rules, I'm not allowed in their draft.
     

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25838
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2016, 07:00:26 PM »
^^True that, though there is an absolute power aspect that has to do with board length, or more specifically skin friction. A small person with a high power to weight ratio won't find an 18' board to be the fastest board for them (unless their power to weight ratio is astronomical). A larger person with a somewhat lower P/W ratio generally can make the 18 board go faster. Might still get toasted by the smaller person on a 14, but it's a better board for them in the right conditions.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

covesurfer

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1936
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2016, 10:18:31 PM »
I'm sure there's truth in all the power to weight stuff, but it goes out the window, to some extent, on downwind.

PB tried to convince me I'd be no faster on a 17-4 Bullet than on an F16 at my size/weight. And yet.....my speeds on downwind runs have steadily climbed on the bigger board. I am pretty sure that if we were talking pure paddling, in flat/choppy conditions, i.e. NOT downwind, the power to weight stuff would ring true.

BTW, Ralf got an OC1. He will soon begin crushing all of us even more.

UKRiverSurfers

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1079
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2016, 12:28:06 AM »
Interesting article by Travis Grant.  http://www.supracer.com/travis-grant-unlimited-stand-up-paddle-boards-are-fun/

I still can't get over the pure illogic that the unlimited class has all but disappeared.  It just makes no sense that the fastest class (in most conditions) draws such little interest.  I get the storage and transport issue (I'm an apartment dweller and can only do inflatables) but that's doesn't seem to be a problem for OC1s, surfskis, kayaks etc. so it shouldn't be for boards over 15 feet.

Yeah but yakkers and OC1 are paddlers so they don't see the need for 'smaller smaller smaller' like most  with a surf background seem to want. Certainly in the UK anyway. Bigger boards are for the less skilled - ha, what BS
SIC Bullet 17v2 Custom
Richmond Custom Carbon 16'
Starboard Point 14'8
Starboard K15
Starboard Astro Touring 14
Starboad Big Easy
Redpaddle Ride 10'6
Badfish Rivershred
Jackson SUPercharger
Badfish MVP 9'o
Badfish IRS 7'2
Pack OC1 12'

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2016, 02:48:01 AM »
One of the problems with UL boards in the UK is that most keen watersports people have vans. Unloading big boards from a roof rack on your own in high winds from a van is a mission. In fact it can be downright dangerous. And loading it on your own can be almost impossible. So they prefer boards that can go in the van itself, which means 12-6.

This is the reason I don't have a van. But if I had a dollar for every time one of my watersports friends has said to me "I'm surprised you don't have a van" (since in their minds all keen water sports people have one), then I'd be almost as rich as PonoBill.

Watersports people in the UK, and elsewhere in N Europe, have vans because the weather is cold and wet and the van provides shelter for changing, and a place to sleep for overnight trips. So it's an important aspect.

Also, land in much of Europe is much more expensive than in places like Australia and the US, because our population density is higher. So there are many mire people who don't have the space to store a UL board. This is why inflatables outsell hard boards 10 to 1 in this market.

The argument that "storing UL boards can't really be a problem because people own OCs and surfskis" does not apply for most of Europe, because firstly people with surfskis etc often store their boats at a clubhouse (whereas I yet have to hear of there being a SUP-only club that has it's own clubhouse), and also there's the fact that hardly anyone uses long paddle craft (except rowers, who again have their own storage facilities). It's just not a sport with significant participation numbers.

If there were good, effective, UL inflatable SUPs there would instantly be a UL class in SUP all round the world. The difference? No transport or storage hassles, cheap, and durable. So those are the reasons why you don't have a UL class at your local races (unless you live in Hawaii): transport and storage, cost, durability, all of which are almost inextricably intertwined.

Perhaps when SUP matures as a sport, clubhouses will spring up at beaches and lakes everywhere, and then the UL class will start to grow. But that will only happen in Europe if it becomes a sport for the rich (like sailing and rowing), so it's swings and roundabouts.

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2016, 02:57:45 AM »
If you own a unlimited, and don't live in Hawaii, what percentage of you paddle time do you actually spend on your unlimited compared to your other boards?

This is outrageous. The points you mention are, at best, inaccurate.

FAST
Neither is a surfski, because based on what you are saying, if we want to go fast, we should get a power boat.

DW
Unlimited boards aren’t just about downwind. A 17-footer bullet will have more glide on flat water than most 12’6 board. However, speaking of DW, there are literally endless possibilities for DW on an Unlimited board on nearly any body of water from West Virginia to Florida, to Nevada and to Hawaii, without even talking about countries like France, Spain, Italy, the UK, etc… To say that there are few DW possibilities is like saying there isn’t a lot of water on this planet.

HEAVY
This is where you really need to try a UL board. My UL is lighter than any other board made by Starboard, including every single 12’6 board of that brand. Further, I have not tried a single board faster upwind than my 17’6 x 23 UL – even in 30 knots right in the face.

TRUSTFUND
UL boards do not have to be more expansive. Look at surfskis: you can get one that weight less than 25 pounds for about $2500. Stand up paddle boards are well above the 3000 USD without a rudder.

VERSATILE
You cannot even compare how versatile a UL board with a rudder is compared to a 12’6. At least, the UL will almost always be safer, and you are not going to get blown out to see. That’s basically the difference between a surfski and a kayak from 1979 – where the two of them are in the middle of the ocean, and only one makes it back to shore.

LOADING
Loading and unloading a 55-pound kayak takes about 8 round trips to the car and is a lot more difficult than loading and unloading a 35-pound UL board to and from the car.

PADDLER’S WEIGHT
It’s ridiculous. I weight 125 pounds, and I will prove to you any day and any time that my UL board is a clear advantage TO ME in terms of speed, glide, board capacity, and board versatility than my 12’6 or 14-footers ever will be. Add a rudder, and I am totally golden. Speaking of paddlers’ weight… did you know that a 80-pound kid cannot paddle with ease in windy conditions without a rudder?

The misconception that UL boards are only for heavier paddler is wrong. UL boards will benefit both the heavier and lighter paddlers.

FLOORED
This one floored me…
QUOTE START
“If you own a unlimited, and don't live in Hawaii, what percentage of you paddle time do you actually spend on your unlimited compared to your other boards?”
QUOTE END

I do not live in Hawaii.
I have 4 boards (including 1 UL).
The last 18 months have shown that I have been on my UL 8 out of 10 times, and paddled more than 3700 km with it – in all sorts of conditions from dead flat to Island Hopping to touring and to race photo coverages. 
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2016, 03:05:38 AM »
It's often mentioned by UL board advocates that UL boards are "safer", because the rudder helps you to paddle cross wind.

This puzzles me, because it hasn't been my experience at all. What strength of wind do you think that a rudder allows you to paddle at 90 degrees without having to only paddle on one side?

Also, the big drawback of ULs with rudders in many parts of the world is weed and other debris. If your rudder gets broken then you really are in a pickle: not "safe" at all.

Travis's article is no doubt co-ordinated time-wise with the availability of his DC UL boards in many markets in the world.

But I'd be very pleased to her from anyone who has one of these NSP DC 17-10s. They seem to be very good value compared with eg. the SICs. But what is the construction like? How much do they weigh? The weights seem to be a closely guarded secret, which doesn't seem like a good sign.

But maybe I'm too cynical. The NSP 17-10 boards look a lovely shape for sure. I'd be interested to know how they go in flat water.

RUDDER & WIND
I have very successfully paddle an Unlimited board with a rudder in 35+ knots. For the first time in my life on a SUP, I didn’t have to paddle “only on one side”. My personal UL doesn’t do so well with side wind, but that’s only because I lack muscle mass and because it has no rudder.

WEED
There are endless simple solutions to avoid weed on your rudder. 
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2016, 03:18:38 AM »
Look, it's just not true that UL boards are "safer" because the rudder will prevent you from being blown out to sea. When the wind gets that strong, the only way to save yourself is to get on your knees, well forward on the deck, and paddle like hell. Or lie down and paddle like hell with your arms. A teeny littłe rudder makes f£&k all difference once things have got to that stage.

Rudders bring safety risks too. They break. And the rudder steering mech is often exactly where you'd want to stand/lie if you were in trouble and having to paddle prone or on your knees in a dicey situation.

In very messy windy sea conditions, UL boards can be simply too much board to control.

I don't see this as an argument against ULs. I love my 17fter. But there ARE disadvantages to very long boards as well as advantages and it doesn't help the argument to deny them. These disadvantages are why people vote with their wallet for fixed fin 14s. So in order for there to be more ULs we need to solve these issues.

Some UL advocates treat people who don't have ULs as if they were little children who haven't seen the light yet. But your arguments would be more effective if you listened more carefully to the points of the "14 brigade" and considered ways of addressing, rather than denying, them.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 03:25:18 AM by Area 10 »

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2016, 03:25:41 AM »
^^True that, though there is an absolute power aspect that has to do with board length, or more specifically skin friction. A small person with a high power to weight ratio won't find an 18' board to be the fastest board for them (unless their power to weight ratio is astronomical). A larger person with a somewhat lower P/W ratio generally can make the 18 board go faster. Might still get toasted by the smaller person on a 14, but it's a better board for them in the right conditions.

@PONO:
On the dead of flat water, I am still more than 15% faster on my 2014 17'6x23 than on my 2016 14'x23.
 
How would you explain that?
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4210
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2016, 03:45:18 AM »
Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2016, 03:46:04 AM »


Above, an 18-footer UL board with a rudder. It is made out of plywood, and costs less than 400 euros, so we can’t really sit here and say that UL boards cost more.
This handmade board is equipped with an anti-weed rudder guard, per my surfski. Weed is therefore not a problem.
Last, but not least, the fact that this UL board is an Unlimited board allows the builder to do what ever he pleases. To make it safer, with crazy Brittany winds in mind, a removable dagger was put in place about 3 feet from the standing area. It’s “just” a hole in the hull and a piece of wood that you slide in and/or out. If you have a problem paddling this board with side wind, you pretty much had no business being on ANY CRAFT on the water on that day.
So, if you don’t know why Unlimited boards are safer in Open Ocean, ASK… but saying that a 12’6 board is safer in Open Ocean is completely absurd.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2016, 03:51:01 AM »
Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?

AH.... you make a very good point. I may have made a mistake stating that my UL is faster. Please allow me to rectify that by saying:

Without a doubt, my UL is faster on anything more than a 1-mile course - by about 15% !!!

To answer your question:
On a pure sprint, and totally flat water, I can hit a top speed of about 12 kmh on my UL, but about 12.8 on my 14-footer. Granted, it feels a whole lot easier to Sprint and Go on the 14-footer.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

supuk

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
    • View Profile
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2016, 03:54:02 AM »
I think storage is definitely the main problem in the uk and probably a lot of europe the average garage is only 15-16ft and thats if your lucky enough to have one, gardens can be even smaller still, it is the only reason i have not built myself one yet and sure its the reason why unlimited have died off in the uk. As and when i do build one it will have to be stored out side which is not great for something that costs so much. 14' is not to bad but 12'6 is super convenient to transport and store and sometime having something that is easy to just throw in the van and on and off the water on your own can make the hole paddle experience that much more pleasant and less of a faff.

At the end of the day who cares on the length i know there are time i will have more fun on a 12'6 and time when i will have more fun on a 14 or a unlimited there are positives and negatives about both every time there is no right or wrong just ride what you like to ride and go enjoy.

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2016, 04:04:21 AM »
Travis and I have had a long talk on a french beach discussing Unlimited boards. We totally agreed that they were a lot of fun on a variety of conditions... we both agreed on a lot of things, but perhaps that's because we've both spent a lot of time on an OC1, Surfski and Open Ocean.

Once you KNOW what a rudder can do from experience, it stops being a fantasy about what a rudder cannot do.

The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car, but I believe to have paddle more miles on an UL than anyone else on this planet. Still, people are going to tell us how it's just not possible to store an Unlimited board in a European country.

You must not want to paddle as much as some people.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

burchas

  • Custom Built
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2016, 04:51:30 AM »
The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car...

With statement like that, clearly France discovered teleportation, No?
in progress...

 


* Recent Topics

topic Vision Pro
[Random]
LaPerouseBay
Today at 12:40:11 AM
topic GPT 5, Sam Altman, What's coming
[Random]
tarquin
February 20, 2024, 11:16:26 PM
topic Sunova Carver Unboxed
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
B-Walnut
February 20, 2024, 07:25:36 AM
topic Kalama vs Sunova Speeed?
[SUP General]
B-Walnut
February 18, 2024, 07:30:40 PM
topic WTB 24"/60cm gofoil plate mast
[Classifieds]
jkseattle
February 14, 2024, 02:44:57 PM
topic FS - Ocean Rodeo Glide A-Series Wings (4m / 5m), USA
[Classifieds]
StellaBlu
February 14, 2024, 10:35:08 AM
topic WTB: Kalama E3 Wing Board - 131 ltr or 141 ltr
[Classifieds]
Canadian_foiler
February 13, 2024, 03:36:22 PM
topic San O Road Washout
[General Discussion]
Dusk Patrol
February 13, 2024, 01:37:30 PM
topic Any SUP/wing board/foil rentals in southern Florida
[Travel, Trips, Destinations]
Caribsurf
February 13, 2024, 09:06:53 AM
topic gofoil mast
[Classifieds]
finbox
February 12, 2024, 06:56:45 PM
topic Starboard Pro vs. Infinity Blurr v2, thoughts?
[SUP General]
SurfKiteSUP
February 09, 2024, 11:14:12 AM
topic Foil Videos
[Foil SUP]
Beasho
February 08, 2024, 07:16:35 AM
topic Surfboards (Longboards)
[SUP General]
Subber
February 07, 2024, 09:01:48 AM
topic Can I use any tail pad?
[Gear Talk]
finbox
February 03, 2024, 05:12:31 PM
topic ISO Kenalu Paddle Blades
[Classifieds]
blueplanetsurf
February 01, 2024, 03:39:47 PM
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal