Author Topic: The fun of unlimited boards  (Read 48068 times)

zachhandler

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 07:44:55 PM »
Okay so are OCs and surfskis better for upwind than ULs?  If so, due to lower center of gravity?

Upwind always sucks compared to downwind, but way way less so in a ski. less hull drag and way less wind resistance. There is a spot I do out and backs on in the ski when it is stormy. If the wind is blowing 30mph I am still holding 5 mph or more going out into the wind and waves. The other thing that is nice about skis in the wind is that it is a trivial task to hold any angle to the wind you choose, and never requires paddling more on one side than the other. In fact you don't even think about steering. You just go where you want to without even realizing what your feet are doing on the pedals. I have never paddled an OC in strong conditions so I don't know how that would compare.

covesurfer

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2016, 08:03:24 PM »
Ok, I'll ask it again: at what wind strength can a 17-18ft board with a rudder run at 90 degrees to the wind direction, by using the rudder?

On days when the wind is straight east, we have about a 3/4 mile paddle, straight south, at 90 degrees to the wind, across Kahului Harbor. It is not deep but it's a harbor so there is no fetch and the wavelets are small and choppy. The rudder allows me to paddle on both sides of the board while making my way across the harbor and I am also able to steer a pretty precise line of my choosing. It is a combination of paddling and rudder use that gets you going. I'd guess the wind is typically 25 with micro-burst type gusts to about 35 or even 40. Especially when a large ship is in port. The wind hits the ship, and accelerates around it, resulting in nightmare gusts. There have been days where the paddle across the harbor is very, very difficult, even on a rudder board. The guys that paddle fixed fins manage it but sometimes get blown downwind more. They are a hardy bunch.

On a 16 or 17+ foot board the rudder is damn nice to have. On a 14, it's not nearly as important as you have a lot less board profile exposed to cross wind and the boards are easier to steer with your paddle and with your feet. I will mention that I relied on the rudder a lot more on my 17-4 Bullet when I first got the board. Now that I've ridden it for a year, I find that I can surf it well from the tail and that it is actually faster when you get most of the front of the board up and out of the water. But, I wouldn't want to be without the rudder either, on a big 17+ footer. On a 14, I truly am comfortable without a rudder at all. But, on a challenging day, you'd better be paying plenty of attention.

I used to store my OC 1 on the living room wall in our tiny condo that we first lived in on Maui. The difficulty of moving it in and out was nothing compared to convincing my wife to put up with it. When you are addicted to the water and the toys you need to enjoy it, you do what you have to. ;D

As for paddling my OC1 upwind, what zachhandler says I also find to be true. I can manage about 5 mph until the chop gets to a point where it starts really slowing the boat. But, if you 'tack' back and forth into the wind, you can still manage to make some decent headway. As soon as you're at an angle where the ama is on the windward side of the boat, you are going to get wind and waves bouncing it and trying to flip you. When you're a newbie, those kinds of conditions are very difficult and anxiety provoking. As you develop good bracing and better boat balance, you learn to get through those conditions quite efficiently. Still, the ama, while it's usually an asset, can create drag and provide a leveraged huli (capsize) mechanism under certain circumstances.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:11:31 PM by covesurfer »

Eagle

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2016, 09:08:05 PM »
A surfski hauls upwind due to low windage - sharp deep vee entry - narrow waterline - easy foot steering - balanced power strokes etc.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

PonoBill

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 10:37:46 PM »
Other than in the harbor, you don't really use a rudder to go 90 degrees to the wind. the rudder is to turn the board quickly and precisely so you can catch bumps going the way you want to go, and surf them in the direction you want to maintain. Not impossible with any other size board, rudder or no, just a lot easier and more effective with the long rail of an unlimited and the added control of the rudder.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Eagle

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:43 PM »
Interestingly the guys we paddle with like to increase run time and will paddle 30 degrees upwind to get a better DW line.  Paddling out from Porteau - it is mandatory to head at least 90 degrees to the wind otherwise you just get blown DW at 45 degrees.

We paddle out maybe half a mile quartering the wind.  It is pretty much broadside to the swells - so we do need our foot on the 17.4 steering all the time to edge into the wind and waves.  If our toes are off the steering we instantly veer DW.

So depending on your situation -  you may or may not need to paddle at 90 degrees to the wind.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

covesurfer

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2016, 11:32:05 PM »
When we paddle out of Maliko, particularly if there is significant groundswell or even if there is a bit of north in the wind, we may go as far as 3/4 to a mile off shore. That paddle is typically close to 90 degrees to the wind. The rudder allows you to go straight out without any drama. With fixed fin, you angle out and surf your way to the outside. You could do that even on a 17 without a rudder but it's easier with. The main thing is that when you have to paddle across the wind, you are not forced into paddling on the downwind side of the board. You can balance your stroke using the rudder to maintain your heading.

While the rudder is useful to go across the wind, it is also as PB points out, a tool to catch glides and steer into the energy of the swells. When you're cooking along really well, you can be back on the tail steering the board with your paddle and your feet. The rudder is an aide, it's not a requirement. When you get used to using it effectively, it is something you can grow to love. Rudders are also extremely useful on channel crossings when you're on a big assed downwind board.

Last point is that there is a big design difference between SIC downwind boards and other unlimiteds that may have another primary purpose, like flatwater or even upwind speed. Horses for courses. A Bullet is not designed as an upwind or flatwater board. The 14's that are available nowadays may be arbitrarily (somewhat anyway) 14' in length, but they are designed to do a number of things well (draft, flatwater speed, upwind, etc) and be fast while they're doing them.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 11:33:40 PM by covesurfer »

SUPflorida

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2016, 03:51:19 AM »




Last point is that there is a big design difference between SIC downwind boards and other unlimiteds that may have another primary purpose, like flatwater or even upwind speed. Horses for courses. A Bullet is not designed as an upwind or flatwater board. The 14's that are available nowadays may be arbitrarily (somewhat anyway) 14' in length, but they are designed to do a number of things well (draft, flatwater speed, upwind, etc) and be fast while they're doing them.

This begs the question why is there not a 16'-18' Sic FX? Or Starboard Allstar? Or Nash Maliko? If bigger is better why are these latest shapes not being generated in longer lengths? Is this the reason it's stalled at the starting line?

Have they tried any customs those lengths? Hard to believe someone has not approached SIC and requested a custom 17' FX with steering...Bill what are you waiting for? 😉Did they try and the result did not giving a big enough performance bump to make it worth while?
The standard in boat design is to not increase/decrease the length by more than 10% before a complete revisit of the design. So, like most things, it's not as simple as it sounds....

Area 10

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 04:10:02 AM »
Yeah I was thinking about getting a custom made based on the concept of the Bark Vapor, but 15ft 6" long.

An All Star in that length would be awesome too. I think that around 15-16ft is about as long as most people can go before they need a rudder, and start to pilot a board rather than surf it.

I think this would resurrect the UL class. The limiting factor for all currently available production ULs is that they are one-trick ponies. But SUPers these days mostly want their boards to be able to empower them to do lots of different SUP activities. Multi-use ULs would be very popular I think.

DavidJohn

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2016, 05:38:56 AM »
15-16' x27-28" rudderless.. .perfect..  8)

burchas

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2016, 06:45:31 AM »
As most of you seem to be very familiar with SIC offering, no one mentioned the  Standamaran. You wanted an unlimited design that work in all conditions, you got it. Do you not consider it a board?

And as for storage limitations, we live in a great times...
I am an apartment dweller as well but that doesn't mean I have to be limited to
an inflatable. with all their advantages the experience is not coming close to
an artfully shaped board in my experience.

So while on the subject of SIC, you have options. You want a hard board
for your city life that you don't want to store in some remote boat house?
Have a 2 piece board why don't you. Mark will build it for you.
If this become a hit, maybe they'll make it production so more could afford it.

I had this as a proof of concept in mind and it turned out to be the best
idea ever. Not only that I now have the experience of a really advanced board
shape, it also saved me 10 minutes on my time to water compared to my inflatable.

Based on the experience that I have with this board I can easily see my self
applying the same concept on a Standamaran & end-up with an unlimited
all around board that I can hang on my apartment wall and have it on water
in 20 minutes flat.
in progress...

TallDude

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2016, 07:14:59 AM »
Unlimiteds are the fastest and have the most glide. Someone will make a killing selling 14' outriggers that are easy to move around. They already make 14' surfskis, they're called kayaks.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 07:57:03 AM by TallDude »
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

PonoBill

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 09:32:42 AM »
Other than downwind, anything other than a 14' doesn't sell. Can't race them most places, so there's no market. There won't be any going back on this, the market has settled into specific requirements creating demand fueling sales numbers and firming requirements. Virtuous cycle.

But when people get on exactly the right board for them it can be pretty stunning. Devin Blish has a custom 15' Bullet with steering. Probably close to ideal for her. Try and catch her. It's not just a matter of speed, it's a matter of ideal for control in downwind conditions with big complex bumps. She's always in control of her board, and it's always gliding, always powered up. Kathy Shipman has a custom 17 splinter of a Bullet. Same thing. Kathy is a little bigger and stronger than Devin so the board suits her.

Tallman--A 14' outrigger would be a slug everywhere but in the surf. The asymmetrical ama drag on the hull would require constant steering.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

TallDude

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 10:36:44 AM »


Tallman--A 14' outrigger would be a slug everywhere but in the surf. The asymmetrical ama drag on the hull would require constant steering.
Of coarse. But for all those newbies who have never paddled a real OC-1, they wouldn't know the difference. And probably wouldn't care as long as everyone else was buying them.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

pdxmike

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2016, 12:29:40 PM »
Based on the experience that I have with this board I can easily see my self
applying the same concept on a Standamaran & end-up with an unlimited
all around board that I can hang on my apartment wall and have it on water
in 20 minutes flat.
burchas--you could probably get any inflatable from your place to out on the water in less than 20 minutes flat.  But they do work a lot better if you take time to inflate them. 


Seriously, I love your 2-piece board, I've always thought the Standamaran was great, and it's exciting to get your reminder that there are other possibilities besides the conventional "inflatable or hardboard" limited choice.

burchas

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Re: The fun of unlimited boards
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2016, 02:16:20 PM »

burchas--you could probably get any inflatable from your place to out on the water in less than 20 minutes flat.  But they do work a lot better if you take time to inflate them. 

It does work better inflated, but then you get stuck with the pump on the board wrapped in a dry bag. :D


Seriously, I love your 2-piece board, I've always thought the Standamaran was great, and it's exciting to get your reminder that there are other possibilities besides the conventional "inflatable or hardboard" limited choice.

Thx pdxmike, these "other possibilities" materializes only when you hit a wall looking at conventional offering.

I rarely race. Stand-up for me is purely workout and fun combined into one. For me it was
the challenge to find the most convenient solution to gurranty this workout will also be as much
fun as possible to keep me coming back rather than let the board collect dust in some remote
boat house.

I found this "reminder" becoming as this thread is clearly about the fun of the unlimited board that
get tossed aside on the account of hardship of handling.
in progress...

 


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