TRYING to think outside the box

[PonoBill]

In my opinion innovation was killed in SUP racing when 14' became the limit. In other words, racing killed innovation long before we really found out what the optimal dimensions of a performance board are. A rare and strange outcome. If you applied a 14 foot limit to surfskis they would look a lot like race SUPs.  A deep axe blade nose on a short boat doesn't distribute enough volume forward. the deck would be awash if it didn't have some width.

The width forward, width back issue has been an issue in Kayaks for a hundred years. Still unresolved. In short boats the need for volume distribution overwhelms other issues. The only place I see substantial innovation in SUP is in open ocean downwinding, where there is no limit to length other than skin resistance. There unlimiteds are the standard and 14 are the rare exception. There's only one manufacturer, SIC, so the innovations come slowly, but design changes are purely aimed at specific performance attributes, not whether or not the board can fit under the ceiling of a store. It's not surprising to me that SIC's unlimited design laboratory yields 24' race and DW boards that work.

Downwinding in the Columbia River is NOT done on unlimiteds, it's primarily on 14's. Why? Race rules.

[Bean]

As far as equipment goes, we don't really have a F-1 category in SUP.  At best, we are running C-production (I'm dating myself). 

It would be interesting to be able see where the sport would be today, if not for the limits on length.   For instance, would the hundreds of participants per race be interested in competing at a local level on equipment that is substantially "less" than what the "pro's" are paddling? I don't know if I would be.   

[photofr]

Well, while thinking "outside the box" my goal was to make reference to the (now) most sought after board in Europe: the 14 footer.

It is with great sadness that I say: It seems that the UL market in Europe is coming to a gigantic pause. I estimate 3 in a hundred stand up paddlers to actually have an interest with Unlimited boards - and most of them would tell you that they wouldn't mind trying one.

Having said this, I am even more sad to let you know that I am selling my Unlimited board: the board I put more than 3500 kilometers on in 18 months, the one and ONLY: 17'6x23" Starboard Sprint. So please, PLEASE do not talk to me about Unlimited boards. This is a sad day.

Back to thinking outside the box... what the HECK WERE YOU THINKING

[pdxmike]

What's sad about the K15 is that 15' or 16' boards would be an ideal length for lots of people for many sorts of paddling.  But not many people are going to get a board that's just slightly too long to race as a 14', and too short to be competitive with a 17' or 18' UL race board.  So even if the UL category makes a big comeback in racing, that's probably not going to help boards in the just-over-14' length.  If race lengths had never happened, a lot of people who now have 14s might instead be on 15s or 16s.

I've always thought if I had unlimited money, I'd get a custom 14'-1", just because.

[Area 10]

Wasn't the Starboard Point, perhaps the first production downwind board, 14-7 in length (or something)? Pretty close to what you want...

[PonoBill]

I had one. As I recall they were 14' 8". They had a pretty extreme pintail, so they only trimmed for light people. Couldn't move the steering forward, so it didn't work for me.

Unlimited boards are pretty much dead. But 14' (or 12'6") IS the box.

The 18' Speedboard is pretty much as you describe, especially in narrower versions. Long thin front third with a canoe nose. I've had people ask me if it was upside down in the water. Easy to keep the paddle vertical and stacked. the only thing it lacked is footwells. Fast board. My second one (after UPS destroyed the first) is a bit too wide for most people, but it's a good size for me.

[photofr]

@PonoBill: very close to what I imagined. It would make a great EVERYTHING board for me, everything but racing, but that's okay with me.

If you have a chance, I would love to see some photos - in action.

[Area 10]

Here is what happens if you apply the design principles gleaned from other watersports to the design of SUPs, without giving precedence to the principles learnt in the last 5 years from stand-up paddlers: The Coreban Turbo 14. Apart from the standard length, you don't get much more "outside the box" than this. Locally, we call it the "bat-board".

[pdxmike]

Here is what happens if you apply the design principles gleaned from other watersports to the design of SUPs, without giving precedence to the principles learnt in the last 5 years from stand-up paddlers: The Coreban Turbo 14. Apart from the standard length, you don't get much more "outside the box" than this. Locally, we call it the "bat-board".

Nice example, Area 10. Wasn't this the one with the promo video that made a huge deal about it being designed by a naval architect? That made it sound like this was the first board to be designed using scientific knowledge?  And that it would be unbelievably faster (10% or 20%) than any other board?  I thought it was great Coreban produced this board, but obviously it didn't live up to the hype.


Generally, designers of all types who come up with something markedly different than what's been done traditionally haven't understood how or why the existing design works.  Then when their different product comes out, the faults become obvious.  But of course it's exciting when someone comes up with something different that really is an improvement.

[clay]

Love this thread, very interesting, thanks for starting.

I have yet to try anything longer than 14 because there are none in my neighborhood, there are a couple guys across the bay that have one but storage and transport seems to much of a hassle to even consider borrowing one.

For me outside the box looks like this:
I live on an island that has at least 3 public schools and who knows how many private that are ocean front, and they have giant chain link fences keeping kids out of the water.  When I have traveled to more remote countries I have seen long narrow boats sitting on the beach.  The vision I want to see is art/woodshop/science classes where kids build their own boards out of local clean affordable renewable wood and then leave them on the beach for anyone to use.  And Physical Education/biology/survival/Home-Ec classes where exploring local waters and learning to be a waterman/woman and how live off/with the sea and preserve/protect nature are the curriculum.

A project I am playing on this summer is to build an unlimited board out of wood and leave it beached/tied in the water which is about 100 feet from my house.  And once I figure out how to build one host a workshop and build more with more people, repeat...Maybe put up a sign that reads "we put these here for everyone to use, please return when you are done".  And see what happens.  If every community had a similar practice there would be no point in stealing them, and the storage and transport problems would be solved.  I suspect somebody would eventually figure out how to make them ultralight and durable.

[PonoBill]

Wow, what principles do you suppose that was designed from? I recognize the canoe nose, but everything else says turbulence, friction, drag, and sloooow.

[pdxmike]

Wow, what principles do you suppose that was designed from? I recognize the canoe nose, but everything else says turbulence, friction, drag, and sloooow.

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,15366.0.html

Yes, "Turbo" was short for "turbolence".
Apparently, it was supposed to go "10 to 15 knots".

[PonoBill]

The nose looks good, though the canoe curve on top would hold water, but I can't see any hope of entraining enough air with a human paddler to do anything. I assume these weren't successful.  At first glance it's like the tunnel hull I'm building, but my aim is to stall the water in the tunnel and provide directional stability without a fin. The stalled water shears from the flow over the rest of the hull and thus provides similar skin friction to a plain hull, That's the idea, it worked in the model, but full size it doesn't. Models are sneaky bastards.

[robon]

Coreban applied the deeply flared nose of the Turbo across their line up for that year, and it didn't catch on. I checked out the Coreban Vision 12'6", and it was a beautiful board, but that nose was far too deep for my liking. Tracked well, but in quartering swell and current, you get pushed around much more than boards with less displacement underneath.

[PonoBill]

The canoe nose makes a lot more sense with the curve on the deck reversed and a little deflector molded in or flow breaks to help water drain and let the nose lift if it has flow over it (punched into the wave in front). If the board has forward motion and the scoop nose gets pushed under it will stay submerged until the motion stops.