2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout

[TN_SUP]

But if I hurt my shoulder unloading a heavy board from my roof rack, there's no paddling. Any lifting overhead is potentially dangerous for old shoulders, so carbon it is for me.

[Eagle]

A 50% retail price drop on a Carbon board tells the story on depreciation and value.  That is why we buy at the end of the year - new demo or used.  You often can get a top flight board for a reasonable price - but you must be patient - and be in the right place at the right time.

In regards to speed - just add 10 and 20 lb weights to your board - then paddle at least 5 miles at race pace.  Extrapolate speed and distance times - and determine if lighter weight is beneficial to you.  As lightweight riders we feel every single pound - especially when putting max power down launching off waves - and when paddling 10 mi distances fast in the ocean. 

Lighter is better for us in near every way provided durability is there.  At 26.5 lbs and over - full Carbon has been 100% durable.  Our heaviest board is a glass I-beam M-14 which weighs a hefty 28 lbs in comparison.  Interestingly that relatively small 1-1/2 lb weight difference can easily be felt carrying long distances - and when lifting overhead.  So for many - when possible - Carbon is best purchased when discounted to maximize the value quotient.

[coldsup]

A 50% retail price drop on a Carbon board tells the story on depreciation and value.  That is why we buy at the end of the year - new demo or used.  You often can get a top flight board for a reasonable price - but you must be patient - and be in the right place at the right time.

In regards to speed - just add 10 and 20 lb weights to your board - then paddle at least 5 miles at race pace.  Extrapolate speed and distance times - and determine if lighter weight is beneficial to you.  As lightweight riders we feel every single pound - especially when putting max power down launching off waves - and when paddling 10 mi distances fast in the ocean. 

Lighter is better for us in near every way provided durability is there.  At 26.5 lbs and over - full Carbon has been 100% durable.  Our heaviest board is a glass I-beam M-14 which weighs a hefty 28 lbs in comparison.  Interestingly that relatively small 1-1/2 lb weight difference can easily be felt carrying long distances - and when lifting overhead.  So for many - when possible - Carbon is best purchased when discounted to maximize the value quotient.

I used to think the M14 was a mid to heavier weight board until I properly weighed it and realized it is pretty good in terms of weight - considering the 14ft Starboard Allstar (hybrid construction) and Glide and similar boards are about 14 to 15+ kg...no fun carrying their boards and they must feel sluggish on acceleration.

[Area 10]

Eagle, we aren't talking about 10-20lbs. The difference between a typical AST and carbon in a 14fter is usually around 3-4lbs. Now, distribute 3lbs evenly around your board, on both top and bottom surfaces, and do the same with equally sized blocks of foam (to account for the loss of hydrodynamics on the bottom surface) and try your test in flat water. Or maybe you could just give it a few extra coats of paint. You'll have to be testing for hours before you find a statistically significant difference. For sure, in certain conditions weight can make a slight difference in dlat water, and we are still talking about only one or two seconds every 2 minutes even in the most severe conditions - equal to, say, one puff of wind or a slightly slow change of paddle side.

My point is this: the carbon boards FEEL faster for sure. But if you actually measure them scientifically, the difference is actually much smaller than it feels. But most people are not willing to spend an entire day and the help of a whole group of friends to gather the data, nor do they have the statistical and experimental design skills to carry out such an experiment. But this kind of stuff is my day job and I have a very helpful bunch of friends, so I have bothered to spend the hours it takes to actually gather the data rather than just go with what I "feel". And I'm telling you that the difference in actual real-world performance is tiny.

However, most of my boards are nevertheless carbon, or part carbon. Why? Because when carrying the boards after a long session, even 3lbs makes a difference. So, like you, I tend to keep my ear to the ground and buy ex-demo or end of season or used if I can.

If you do races which have a beach run/start component then the extra weight of the AST could actually make a noticeable difference - but out of the water not in it.

Incidentally, when downwinding, a slightly heavier board can actually be an advantage sometimes, practically, when loading, unloading etc and they can give a smoother ride and more stability.

And yes, the M14 is a very good weight for a non-carbon board. Most are very tough too. I think for most people it's probably around the ideal weight/cost/durability combination. But if you are a bantam-weight, of course you will want a bantam-weight board: Some women I know struggle to even load carbon 12-6 boards on their roof-racks, and find it pretty much impossible on their own in wind. This is a good reason for buying a lighter board - much better than a supposed "performance" advantage.

[robon]

A 50% retail price drop on a Carbon board tells the story on depreciation and value.  That is why we buy at the end of the year - new demo or used.  You often can get a top flight board for a reasonable price - but you must be patient - and be in the right place at the right time.

In regards to speed - just add 10 and 20 lb weights to your board - then paddle at least 5 miles at race pace.  Extrapolate speed and distance times - and determine if lighter weight is beneficial to you.  As lightweight riders we feel every single pound - especially when putting max power down launching off waves - and when paddling 10 mi distances fast in the ocean. 

Lighter is better for us in near every way provided durability is there.  At 26.5 lbs and over - full Carbon has been 100% durable.  Our heaviest board is a glass I-beam M-14 which weighs a hefty 28 lbs in comparison.  Interestingly that relatively small 1-1/2 lb weight difference can easily be felt carrying long distances - and when lifting overhead.  So for many - when possible - Carbon is best purchased when discounted to maximize the value quotient.

I used to think the M14 was a mid to heavier weight board until I properly weighed it and realized it is pretty good in terms of weight - considering the 14ft Starboard Allstar (hybrid construction) and Glide and similar boards are about 14 to 15+ kg...no fun carrying their boards and they must feel sluggish on acceleration.

The SB Allstar Hybrid 14 X 27 is 5 pounds lighter than the GS Glide. For a board having 324 litres of volume and very little actual carbon in the construction, it's a decent weight. The JL M14 isn't as thick, and has less volume, so it makes sense that it should be lighter. It will be interesting to see what the new Sidewinders weigh in at in the signature construction.

[Eagle]

Here is an excellent speed test that Robert performed using weights on a board.  When I noted "extrapolate" I was referring to taking 10-20 lbs and dividing it down proportionately to the specific increase in board weight as Robert calculated.

As light weight riders any proportionate increase in body or board weight is much exaggerated.  When doing pull ups and muscle ups for instance - a 5 lb increase often means the difference between getting up and over the bar - vs not.   Relating to SUP speed tests we have done many tests ourselves as we have nice 5 and 8 mile test loops we time on throughout the year.  At race pace - especially when feeling tired towards the end of a loop - pushing it at a very high sustained VO2 % - we always want to pull a lighter vs heavier board.  Every pull is strenuous and tiring.  So extra board weight does have a significant impact - as most all speed conscious paddlers want to pull a very light carbon board.  Not many contenders paddle AST or glass.

As noted before - our speed and strength - is slow and weak compared to sponsored riders.  And the ones we have paddled with simply take off on us - semi planing in fact.  Really opens your eyes when you see what these semi-pros are capable of - and what their actual strength to weight ratios must be.  And when asked about the speed of Kai and Connor - they say those riders are way way faster than them.   

http://zenwaterman.blogspot.ca/2010/11/is-lighter-really-faster-sup-weight.html

[Eagle]

Here are some of Robert's comments that make sense from our experience as well -

"If you knew that making your board just one pound lighter would have made you 0.2% faster would you still say that weight does not matter?

I think not.

Another thought:
The speed difference might seem very small in the controlled flat water test but in downwind racing it's all about catching and connecting bumps. That slightly faster acceleration can be the difference between making and missing a bump, which can compound the effect. If you race in downwinders you know that connecting one good bump train can put you 50 yards ahead (or behind if you miss it) of you competition, and it does not really matter if you are at the front or in the middle of the pack.
If you are not racing, or want a board to train on, save yourself a bundle and get a solid, less expensive board, but in racing, light weight is KEY"

Definitely on DW runs it is all about catching and connecting bumps.  That slightly faster acceleration that Robert and coldsup refer to does have a compound effect.  For instance - the power balance endurance and timing of sponsored riders is such that - in a mere matter of minutes they are basically gone from us.  It is really quite amazing to watch - and to learn - as these experts have it all figured out already.

At our age - we are just happy to be out there with these guys.   

[Area 10]

Ok, let's take a different tack on this matter of board weight and performance. Here are a load of factors that will influence a racer's performance. Let me know which factors in this list matter less than having a board that is 10% heavier:

1. How much sleep he had the night before.
2. Effects of recent injury.
3. Quality of pre-race breakfast.
4. Quality of pre-race day nutrition.
5. Amount of time spent training.
6. Quality of technique tuition.
7. Speed of changing hands with paddle.
8. Match of paddle length to the conditions.
9. Quality of catch technique.
10. Quality of power phase technique.
11. Quality of paddle exit technique.
12. Quality of recovery technique.
13. Buoy turn ability.
14. Ability to track straight - many strokes per side.
15. Ability to choke down on paddle.
16. Ability to change cadence to suit the circumstances.
17. Ability to read bumps.
18. Ability to rail steer the board.
19. Ability to surf the board (where relevant).
20. Wearing the optimal clothing for the circumstances.
21. Having optimal hydration for the race.
22. Really wanting to win.
23. Having a positive attitude to the race.
24. Ability to draft.
25. Ability to sprint.
26. Ability to know when to sprint and when to rest.
27. Ability to assimilate course rules and directions.
28. Ability to get leash on and off under race conditions (if relevant).
29. Ability to warm up optimally before a race.
30. Flexibility.
31. Endurance.
32. Balance ability.
33. Design of board (eg. displacement vs planing).
34. Width of board.
35. Thickness of board.
36. Volume of board.
38. Flexibility of board.
39. Ease of carrying board (if eg. beach race).
40. Grip of board.
41. Speed feedback devices (eg. GPS).
42. Whether you emptied your bowels before the race.
43. Whether you emptied your bladder before the race.
44. Psychological factors that might cause distraction.
45. Grip of paddle (ie. slippery?).
46. Familiarity with the environment.
47. Familiarity with the conditions.
48. Weight of leash.
49. Weight of hydration unit.
50. Weight of undigested food.
51. Weight of undigested drink.
52. Weight of clothing.
52. Weight of devices (watch, GPS etc).
53. Weight of fin.
53. Design of fin.
54. Position of fin(s).
54. Amount of empty fin box.
55. Drainage of water from the deck.
56. Amount of nose rocker.
57. Amount of tail rocker.
58. Concaves/no concaves/bottom shape.
59. Rail shape.
60. Body fat ratio.

Etc etc etc...

Now, the top 1% of international paddlers may have so many of these factors so optimised that the difference in their performance between boards that are different by 3lbs might be able to be detected. Perhaps. But for the rest of us, the amount of variation in our race performances that are due to all the factors above - and no doubt many others I haven't mentioned - will swamp any attributable to paddling an AST vs. a carbon board. And it is variation in all these factors that make small differences in board weight so hard to quantify in terms of impact upon race performance.

So, is spending another 1500 dollars US on a carbon board (if you live in Europe, that's the price differential) going to be worth it, versus spending that money on a new paddle, or even better nutrition, or some technique tuition etc? Don't fool yourself.

Is having a board that is in theory 0.2% faster (taking Robert's question) worth 1500 US dollars more, when any of the 60 variables above might contribute as much if not more to your race performance? Maybe if you are Danny Ching with the bank balance of Richard Branson. For the rest of us, we'd be better off going through the list above and asking how optimised we are for those factors and spending our money on these things IMO.

[burchas]

Right you are A10. Taking some notes from your list now

[Eagle]

Wow - amazing list.

We have not bought a Carbon board at full price because its value is generally inflated and we have access to a lot of good deals.  Plus they depreciate fast.  Ex. We bought our Carbon SB Touring that listed for around $3400 - for about $1500 demo.  That was reasonable - and made sense for a fantastic Carbon touring board.  But my point is simple - buy that light Carbon board at a discount vs paying full price.  Since a lighter board is better - as long as the durability is there.

So yes as always - it really comes down to the paddler - as we have been trying to note.  Power balance endurance and timing - that is what counts and what most should be working on if they want faster times.  That is why those experts pull away from us average Joe's.  One rider was so competent he used his very old beat up Bark Expedition - and still pulled from us on our very pricey and shiny DW specific boards. 

So rider skill and ability etc - always trumps the board. 

[yugi]

I've got #52 down pat! Can't get lighter than zero.

Oh wait, there's 2 of them. OK, my trunks are as light as one can get, mainly so they dry quicker.

[burchas]

I've got #52 down pat! Can't get lighter than zero.

Oh wait, there's 2 of them. OK, my trunks are as light as one can get, mainly so they dry quicker.

Hmm, I expected #54 (Amount of empty fin box ) to be first on your list

[Area 10]

I've got #52 down pat! Can't get lighter than zero.

Oh wait, there's 2 of them. OK, my trunks are as light as one can get, mainly so they dry quicker.

Hmm, I expected #54 (Amount of empty fin box ) to be first on your list

Haha! I mentioned this because it has been mooted often on the forums as a potential source of drag. It has even been used as an argument for reducing the fin box size by Starboard, and increasing fin base length by fin retailers. Futures Fins sell blanks to fill empty side bite boxes. And actually, if you look at video of the underside of a board when it is being paddled, it isn't wildly implausible that it does cause significant drag. Whether it could be measured in real world situations is another matter, however.

[burchas]

I've got #52 down pat! Can't get lighter than zero.

Oh wait, there's 2 of them. OK, my trunks are as light as one can get, mainly so they dry quicker.

Hmm, I expected #54 (Amount of empty fin box ) to be first on your list

Haha! I mentioned this because it has been mooted often on the forums as a potential source of drag. It has even been used as an argument for reducing the fin box size by Starboard, and increasing fin base length by fin retailers. Futures Fins sell blanks to fill empty side bite boxes. And actually, if you look at video of the underside of a board when it is being paddled, it isn't wildly implausible that it does cause significant drag. Whether it could be measured in real world situations is another matter, however.

Good catch A10 that's exactly the thread I was referring to.

[Eagle]

I've got #52 down pat! Can't get lighter than zero.

Oh wait, there's 2 of them. OK, my trunks are as light as one can get, mainly so they dry quicker.

Hmm, I expected #54 (Amount of empty fin box ) to be first on your list

Haha! I mentioned this because it has been mooted often on the forums as a potential source of drag. It has even been used as an argument for reducing the fin box size by Starboard, and increasing fin base length by fin retailers. Futures Fins sell blanks to fill empty side bite boxes. And actually, if you look at video of the underside of a board when it is being paddled, it isn't wildly implausible that it does cause significant drag. Whether it could be measured in real world situations is another matter, however.

Good catch A10 that's exactly the thread I was referring to.

Hahahaha!!!