Veteran's Day

[TallDude]

I know a lot of Zoners are veterans, so I just wanted to say, "Thank You For Your Service, my family and I greatly appreciate it." My father-in-law who served in the Navy was interred here at the Punch Bowl, HI. this year. This is a photo I took the day of his service. Remembering him and other family members who served. 

[Bean]

Thanks Zoner-Vets!

[PonoBill]

Be nice if there was some surf for veterans day. I'd tell everyone I get priority for all the good stuff.

[eastbound]

service in our armed forces is an amazing piece of altruism--those who do it for the rest of us deserve that their service be employed with the greatest of caution and respect--followed by honor, respect and care when they return home.

thanks to any reading this who have served

[covesurfer]

Thank you all that served not just today but every day!

[Mil-Surf]

Thanks guys! And happy Veterans Day to all the other Zoners on active duty or that have served our country!

[eastbound]

saw an obese young woman, perhaps 25 YO, as I got off the subway this morning. She was sitting on a bench, clad in filthy rags and was removing bandages from very swollen calves, obvious infection etc going on. I walked on, nauseated. Then, 20 feet past, I felt anger at myself, turned back, handed her a 20 and told her to pls get some nutrition and some medical care. She thanked me profusely, tho was barely articulate, clearly affected by severe psych issues.

Then there is this guy, who I couldnt resist giving a few bucks to also. The homeless young woman is complicated--she may resist getting help, may be so messed up psych-wise that she can't be helped. But this young man clearly wants to "pull himself up by his bootstraps"---pathetic that he cant get help reintegrating, even sobriety, ptsd, etc have been issues for him. wtf--why arent there good, easy-to access programs for a guy like this?

[PonoBill]

Generally there are, and no, it's not easy to access them. If it were they'd be out of funds in a week. Plenty of fraud going on. I don't pretend begging in the street is an easy gig, but there's money in it. Some only make a few bucks an hour, but with a good location and a good story it's more than minimum wage. The tough thing about programs to "fix" these problems is that the issues are as complicated as any one person is.  "They" should do something is the most expensive way to "fix" the problem and means one highly compensated (relatively) bureaucrat for every fifty panhandlers. If you want to do something, do something. The rescue missions can always use help.

I know a young winemaker couple in Hood River who work their asses off to make their orchard and vineyard work. They make great wine and grow cherries. They hire immigrant labor to pick their crops but decided to try to help some of the folks they see with signs saying "looking for work. They offered lunch and $15 per hour to everyone they saw with a sign. Got a few takers, but they all walked off the job after lunch. The potential for the same money sitting on an on-ramp with a sign is better than a certain $15 plus lunch doing actual work. And of course, none of them did a decent job.

That's not the only example. I've tried myself. Offered guys $20 an hour to clean my shop. No takers in about ten tries. They walked away when I didn't hand them money. Try it. Your mileage may vary. If you find a good worker send them my way.

The veterans thing is a collective guilt trip in my opinion, created by the fact that so few people serve. I give some money to Wounded Warriors, but otherwise I don't get worked up about the treatment of veterans. The GI bill was nice and more than enough thanks. After that, it was up to me. I don't really expect thanks for my service, I did it for my own purposes, so did everyone else I know who was in the service except for the draftees, and the draft ended in 1973.

Nice to hear people say that though, it beats the heck out of being spit at. 

[TallDude]

Super complicated, and sad. I hope he does find the path to his own internal freedom. All the money in the world can't fix that.

[eastbound]

i ran a craigslist ad for general yard and construction work--got tons of responses--hired two navy guys on shore duty--sub guys out of groton, ct--they were great--excellent with plumbing and electrical, but also digging ditches--great guys

but i heard from tons of people who seemed eager to work for 15 an hour cash. most seemed reasonable and eager to work hard. some were suspect, immediately asked how physical the work would be and started cherry picking around on the phone before even getting close to my hiring them. they didnt like the odea of working alongside me, who might work hard and expect same from them. one kid i googled, found he'd been arrested a couple times on petty beefs--called him, said it concerned me, but that i wanted to give him a shot (wife told me i was nuts), and that if he did right by me he'd have a reference so the next job he wanted could hear from me that he was a good kid---drove 3 hrs to my house to work with him a few days and he no-showed, screend my calls etc. good deeds go punished,,,,sometimes.

[PonoBill]

I feel for the guy, but claiming PTSD and no help from the VA is perhaps a bit much. About 2.5 million servicemen have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and of that number, probably 80,000 saw some form of combat. That's a guess based on the number of combat infantry badges issued--about 41,000 for Iraq, 31,000 for Afghanistan. CIB's are meaningful, but you don't have to get up close and personal to get one. If you have the MOS and your camp gets a mortar round--even if it didn't wake you up--you might get a CIB. On the other hand if you have the wrong MOS and you fought hand to hand, you might not get one. But it's as close as one can probably get to an indication of combat vs. support. So let's say 4% of deployed servicemen actually saw combat.

The disability claims from Irag/Afghanistan deployments are way out of proportion to the number of likely combatants: 670,000 awarded, 100,000 pending. 870,000 I/A veterans using VA hospital benefits. 6600 US Servicemen killed in both conflicts, compared to 60,000 in Vietnam, and there are more disability claims and VA hospital use than any previous military action, including WW2. 31% of veterans applying for disability that ranges from $133 to $3,300 per month, and 670,000 already getting it. So when someone says he has PTSD but the VA isn't helping, it's probably bullshit.

The PTSD story is pretty weird. Suddenly everyone has it, even those not deployed. It's like the veteran suicide stories that never mention that the majority of veteran suicides (54%) are people who were never deployed.

So yeah, war sucks, and I have a soft spot for any veteran that struggles, but there's something else going on here. Anyone really think that WW2 or Vietnam were less challenging than the war on terror?

[starman]

So yeah, war sucks, and I have a soft spot for any veteran that struggles, but there's something else going on here. Anyone really think that WW2 or Vietnam were less challenging than the war on terror?

The veterans thing is a collective guilt trip in my opinion, created by the fact that so few people serve. I give some money to Wounded Warriors, but otherwise I don't get worked up about the treatment of veterans. The GI bill was nice and more than enough thanks. After that, it was up to me. I don't really expect thanks for my service, I did it for my own purposes, so did everyone else I know who was in the service except for the draftees, and the draft ended in 1973.

Wow Pono! You are one jaded SOB on the subject of PTSD and Vet's.

PBS ran this on Veterans Day and it's a must watch for EVERY American;

http://www.pbs.org/veterans/stories-of-service/stream-tv/a-to-z/debt-of-honor/

Also some insight to PTSD that may help you with your numbers as it's just now starting to be understood:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/05/ptsd-war-home-sebastian-junger

Personally the "support the troops" is all bullshit because we don't. We either bury them when they come home or stick them in a wheelchair or send them home with severe mental disorders and say "thank you for your service". We spend billions for some bogus blimp defense project but the hell with giving that money to help the people we broke by sending them off to war. We've done enough for them and their families right? Let charity take care of them. We love electing people who like to brag of who they are going to bomb first. Or how many solders they are going to send into war. We love having a "defense" budget that eclipses any other country on this planet. But we sure hate paying to fix the people we send to do the dirty work.

[PonoBill]

I'm a vet, I was told years ago that I could get disability. Because I screwed up my shoulder racing a motorcycle while I was on active duty. So yeah, that's stupid.

I've got nothing against helping people that need it, but separating the wheat from the chaff is a big issue. At the current rate we're talking about another trillion in disability. When someone at the federal level tries to dig into claim validity there a big brouhaha and a bunch of deserving vets are trotted out for the media show. I'm not impressed by yet another dog and pony.

I've seen firsthand how Vietnam era vets were permanently scarred by their service. I worked with two of them who were serious fucked up. Back country life and death stuff--the both of them. But they held responsible jobs and coped. Some can't. I get it. But that doesn't mean every REMF that got homesick deserves a check for life.

[starman]

Oh OK I get it, don't take responsibility for breaking people who we send off to war because it costs too much. Lot cheaper to the tell them to suck it up because you did. Yea, there will always be people who falsely claim a disability but the number is very small compared to the number who are. But using that as an excuse not to take financial responsibility for those who are damaged is wrong on all levels.

The the bottom line is the money right? Too many of us are so upset over the 1 that lies about a disability we are ok with not giving the other 100 what is needed. We as a nation send men and women to fight wars and are willing to spend a trillion dollars on that part. We just don't seem to be able to spend the money to clean up the mess that is left behind. I'm not sure telling vet's to suck it up when they come home because treating them right is too expensive is good policy. It's OK to piss away billions in DOD waste because that's the cost of keeping us safe. But God forbid we spend one dime on veterans because one of them may be lying about disability.

Maybe the first thing to change in our tax code is having an IRS form that we fill out that puts a number on the cost of the DOD and war. That way we all get shown how much we need to pay each year out of pocket for our war machine. You might include a draft number on the form. So everyone understands that going to war means EVERYONE gets to participate.

[PonoBill]

Tell you what, if you don't put words in my mouth then I won't put words in yours. Look at the numbers. Way less than 100,000 combat vets, 770,000 disability claims, 350,000 PTSD claims. How do these numbers make sense? Don't fuck around with turning that on me sucking it up, it's a simple question. If that number makes sense to you then there's no point in further discussion.

We now have all volunteer services with far more training and professionalism than ever in the past. And the disability claims are higher than WW2 when 12.5 million servicemen deployed, 407,000 killed, 671,000 wounded. How does that work?

My statement was that a guy in the street with a sign saying he has PTSD and the VA won't help is probably bullshit. that's because it's probably bullshit. I know, it's a big surprise, but people sometimes lie when they're holding a sign up to get money. Seven out of eight PTSD claims have been accepted and receive some form of disability.