Bernie

[stoneaxe]

I wish someone smarter than I could concisely state all the silly things we do and say that screw our society up and then come up with a don't do this it's a stupid fucking idea list. All of the issues we face are tightly connected. And so many of the supposed solutions contradictory or conflicting. How do we make good education available to all and at the same time open our borders to anyone and everyone? Free education Bernie?....the rest of your party wants to act like we don't have borders...are we to now turn our colleges into the jokes our public schools are? Great for the folks that can send their kids to the best private schools and thus on to the best private colleges but what about the rest of us?

[all~wet]

Absurd that in "the information age" blessed with instant communication and literally the last few thousands worth of accumulated information (and a lot of rubbish) in our pockets............... we haven't found a way to translate that into a cheaper, more efficient, universally available (not entitled) education.  Instead, we have a largely unchanged, archaic system based on medieval ideals and infrastructure with information and vetting hoarded/controlled in centralized locations with limited access and dispensed at a high cost. With today's technology... that students are still required to purchase text books each semester to the tune of 1k-2k and lug them around is one small hint at the idiocy and ignorant refusal to adapt in what are supposed to be our institutions full of our cultures greatest wisdom. No small wonder students are jaded.

Somewhere between free and the forced introduction of our youth into debt culture/indentured servitude lies a moderate reasonable system that is self sustaining, not for profit. Perhaps with tuition based on ability to pay, merit scholarships and work programs. greater cooperation integration with industry and focus on vocation could perhaps make education more pertinent, current and efficient. Were not the first 12 years in school supposed to provide a well balanced, informed base of knowledge? Seems to me College/University and in many cases, trade schools would be better served in narrowing the focus in preparation to being a productive, independent, well informed adult.

There are many who come out of our education system much better off for it, but often this is a statement about the individual more than it is the institution.

[PonoBill]

^^^^What he said.

Systems like Kahn are the tip of the iceberg. If a guy like me who typically spent $10-15K per year on hardbound books can switch overnight to a kindle, how the hell can colleges and schools at all levels even consider paper textbooks. I mean, really. What IS with that?  Why isn't every text hugely hyperlinked, not just to information but to volunteer tutoring so students can get clarity on topics they don't understand. today's struggling student is tomorrow's tutor--all it takes is a credit system. You either buy tutor credits with money or gain them by successfully helping someone else. That's just off the top of my head.

How hard is this? the solution isn't spending more money on a crap system, it's making a great system available to anyone that wants to work for it.

And incidentally, the border stuff is bullshit. Fifty years from now we'll be paying people to come here.

[Weasels wake]

Somewhere between free and the forced introduction of our youth into debt culture/indentured servitude lies a moderate reasonable system that is self sustaining, not for profit. Perhaps with tuition based on ability to pay, merit scholarships and work programs. greater cooperation integration with industry and focus on vocation could perhaps make education more pertinent, current and efficient. Were not the first 12 years in school supposed to provide a well balanced, informed base of knowledge? Seems to me College/University and in many cases, trade schools would be better served in narrowing the focus in preparation to being a productive, independent, well informed adult.

Sanders said that he thinks that collage should be financed at the same rates as a home mortgage or a car loan, but at the same time he said that he doesn't understand economics 101.  It's very interesting that he would say that (if I had the link I would post it, but the wife is calling dinner!).
Student loans are very different than house or car loans, those loans have collateral behind them, student loans don't have a thing, that is what needs to be dealt with before anything like that could be done.

[starman]

Somewhere between free and the forced introduction of our youth into debt culture/indentured servitude lies a moderate reasonable system that is self sustaining, not for profit.

There certainly was but not so much anymore; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Higher_Education

Out of that system came people like Vint Cerf a UCLA grad and one of the "fathers of the internet". Lots more like him came out of the UC system. I, for one, consider that system of a free education not an "entitlement" but an investment. The best return on the taxpayers money ever created. Hard to explain that to those who hold fast to the idea that anything "free" is an "entitlement" or not held in any value.

[PonoBill]

The California Master Plan worked very well indeed, almost everywhere it was implemented except California. The underlying idea is great, now reform the institutions that provide the education and you'd probably have something. I don't view free higher education as an entitlement, but I do think it needs to be earned. the plan for California included ideas that weren't well implemented in California, and the completion rate for degrees was continually a problem. I don't claim that the education being nearly free was the only problem, but people tend to value things according to what was required to acquire them.

I think that free education the way Bernie expresses it, is just an empty promise, but in the unlikely event that it is not, I don't believe that changing the price to zero will increase the performance of US education. Our most expensive schools are the most in demand--around the world. MIT accepts less than seven percent of the people who apply. Harvard accepts less than five percent most years. The Harvard endowment is so large ($40 billion) that tuition could easily be free, in fact it's a trivial component of the financing of the school--about $900 million contrasted to the $4 Billion Harvard earned on it's investments. The regents chose not to make it so because they believe the resulting education would be devalued, both by students and the world at large. And because they're probably a bunch of stuffy old farts.

And last but not least--Geez that Naish ad is irritating. Makes me want to rape, pillage and burn. At least I got the order right.

[Tom]

the forced introduction of our youth into debt culture/indentured servitude

My nephew, how I am supporting, graduated from the UC system $80,000 in debt. He earns $1,000 month and his student loan payments are $12,000 per month. There's a lot more to the story, but I won't go into it. Since he feels he will be indebt for the rest of his life he is quite depressed and has pretty much given up on ever not being into indentured servitude. Unlike car or house loans, you cannot wipe out student loan debt through bankruptcy or any other means. 

[eastbound]

sorry for your nephew, tom. and he's not alone.

argue about the system til the cows come home, it's an unarguable disgrace that kids have been preyed upon like this.

this site might help your nephew realize he is not alone, and that the problem is not him. and edudebtors are planning actions and lobbying to try to get relief.    http://edudebtorsunion.org/wp/#&panel1-7

[PonoBill]

I don't quite get the math there Tom.

[Bean]

Even at $1200, that would be quite a burden for someone just getting started.

[Tom]

I don't quite get the math there Tom.

missed a decimal point , $1,200 payments  per  month .

[Subber]

the forced introduction of our youth into debt culture/indentured servitude

My nephew, how I am supporting, graduated from the UC system $80,000 in debt. He earns $1,000 month and his student loan payments are $1,200 (edited) per month. There's a lot more to the story, but I won't go into it. Since he feels he will be indebt for the rest of his life he is quite depressed and has pretty much given up on ever not being into indentured servitude. Unlike car or house loans, you cannot wipe out student loan debt through bankruptcy or any other means.

Yup...I don't think they emphasize enough that student loans can't be wiped out by a bankruptcy filing.

I'm curious what his major is.

[eastbound]

trump corp entities have filed bankruptcy 3 times! prolly screwed a bunch of longtime employees out of their pensions in the process--a motive often behind corp barkruptcies--and then after the "work out" the corp repapers its equity and...voila....no pension obligations!

yet kids have no recourse--even if theyve been scammed by a worthless for-profit univsersity which spends 40% of its taxpayer supllemented budget on pushy marketing!

you cant make this shit up

[PonoBill]

Actually Trump corporations declared bankruptcy four times. Bankruptcy very rarely eliminates pension funds unless the company is dissolved vs. restructured and even then the PBGC usually grabs all the remaining assets and goes after the principals of the company for any assets that can be connected. Having those guys after you is way worse than the IRS.

Permitting bankruptcy to eliminate student loans would simply spell the end of student loans. What assets would they have at risk?

[SlatchJim]

Maybe it's the fallout of losing most or all of our vocational training. Pretty difficult when any job that doesn't doesn't involve rubbing dollars together is looked down upon. The main characters in The Honeymooners were a bus driver and sewer worker. Today it's some f$%#ing reality show whose name I refuse to mention.

Bus Driver "Operator": for a local public bus agency starts at $14.57 and tops out at $22.43 per hour
Wastewater Technician I: in a local city on the first page of a google search makes $37,800 - $48,162 a year.

These are at least as lucrative as the offers my daughter had after getting her business and econ degree from a pretty high ranking private liberal arts college.  The bus driver gig seems limited but I can tell you from experience that wastewater work has some economic rewards as you get further into the field...no pun intended.... really.

Having kids that are between 23 and 28, the biggest thing they're all missing is real world exposure to all the career paths there are out there for them.  They generally base their choices on very limited exposure.