Author Topic: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers  (Read 24248 times)

lavafrog

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2015, 11:53:22 PM »
Great post and videos Robert!  I have done a downwinder yet, but that definitely will help!
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coldsup

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2015, 01:18:09 AM »

My 2 cents on the perfect ingredients for a first time run: short course (<3 miles), real wind (>20 mph: down breezing is not addictive and does not sell the sport), very stable DW board (29" Glide, F14 or the like), huge emphasis on safety, and beer at the end.

Spot on.

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2015, 01:59:25 AM »
Yes.  And you might also add not standing period because too narrow a board.  Took a first timer from Maliko today.  He told me he had tons of experience at home on fairly narrow 26" race boards.  He wanted to rent a Bullet 17 and I wanted him to get a 30" wide.  We settled on a F-16, which is fairly forgiving but still didn't pan out for him.  He stood a little paddling out of the gulch and that was it.  As soon as we hit the wind line it was Pocohantas all the way.   Wasn't the first time I've seen this and try as I could, I couldn't convince him to ride a wider board. 

But he realized he had let his ego get the best of him and although he was on his knees the whole time, he did catch some glides and had a remarkably great sense of humor about it all.  At the end he told me it was one of the coolest things he had done.  So we all set bars as to what works and for some it doesn't take much.  It was a great day so even on his knees we got down the coast fairly quick.  I took the time to focus on steering and catching glides without paddling, which was pretty damn fun as well. 

But note to others.  If you come here to Maui and don't have some downwind time in the saddle (anywhere will do really), please check your egos about board width at the door if you have expectations of standing up for the run.  Even though it's downwind, the surface heaves around in a heavy handed manner.  Today had the added extra of Portuguese man of war.  The first timer didn't get stung and he was in the water plenty.  I got hit in the ankle sticking my feet in to slow the board waiting for him.

peterwSUPr

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2015, 04:35:52 AM »
I don't want to drag this off topic but PB, a "deep water wave" is when the wave length is less than one half the water depth.  Looking at the Hatchery (the Gorge) aerial in Google I can measure the peak to peak wavelength at 50 feet (nice!) so water needs to be at least 25 feet for waves to behave like deep water waves.  On the Oregon side where water is shallower, outside of the channel you might not have deep water waves sometimes.   I did refer to the word "set" but I'm not referring to that in the context of "swell" which is when waves travel away from where the wind is creating them.  I just was referring to the fact that often on wind waves there is more than one big one, there might be a few in a row, but I did not mean to suggest that those are the same as swell from a long way away. 

The energy of larger waves does travel at less than the speed of the actual wave in deep water.  You might never get the right conditions to test this on Maui, but wait for one of those super glassy windless days at the Gorge and look at what motorboat wakes do.  Ideally do it on the sup of course :)  You can't stay on the same wave (wake) out in the deeper water on the river, but maybe over a sandbar if the depth stays knee deep so the wave is not quite breaking you'll find that you will no longer end up ahead of the wave, since the wave will become a shallow water wave.  The shallow water wave moves slower and gets closer together and steeper.  The speed of the wave is then similar to the speed of the wave energy.

Here's a big more on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersion_(water_waves) scroll down to the section titled "group Velocity". 

I'm sure my old bearded Birkenstock-wearing oceanography prof would correct some of my rusty terminology, but hopefully that has not led to the confusion. 

Peter

****EDIT***  Wait, I see PB and I are closer together than I thought we were.  Looking at that Wikipedia page, the section further down on "multi-component wave patterns" has a graphic on the right which illustrates how the waves behave.  The energy of the larger wave is moving slower than the actual wave, and you can see how this is coming from interference.  Very good graphic!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 04:45:34 AM by peterwSUPr »

Off-Shore

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2015, 06:02:10 AM »

My 2 cents on the perfect ingredients for a first time run: short course (<3 miles), real wind (>20 mph: down breezing is not addictive and does not sell the sport), very stable DW board (29" Glide, F14 or the like), huge emphasis on safety, and beer at the end.

Completely agree with you BC. Most of us commenting on this subject have had downwind experience and / or have taught people to SUP in various conditions including downwinding. I find that if newbies feel safe then it makes a HUGE difference.

I always check everyone's gear, and make sure each person has a bright coloured top and a PFD/ lifejacket, whistle and good leash. We also go through the drill for what to do if they are in trouble. Firstly they can always kneel on their board and paddle. We have two signals: Waving the paddle in the air, is for "I need assistance" and waving their hand is "I am okay". I've paddled with people who have freaked out when the wind has picked up or they have fallen off a lot, and I've found if they have the right safety gear, and know what to do, that it's a lot more manageable for them and myself. Usually I take 1 or max 2 newbies out at a time, and stay at the back of them, and then speed past them, stop and get them to stop when I stop. This can be as short as 500m / 550 yards at a time. I'll use these stops to say things like "Isn't this awesome!!" but mainly I check on their condition, both physically and mentally, and give a bit of coaching. If I feel they are okay, then I'll let them go further the next time. Usually after two of these 2km / 1.5mile runs, they are good enough to go on their own (with a buddy of course).

SUP is one of the fastest sports to learn, and as Headmount says, if you start on the right sized board downwinding, you can get gliding and catching runners on your first outing and progress swiftly. Sure if you are lucky enough to be able to get your hands on a SIC F14 to start out on, do. But if not, and you have access to any wide stable surf style board, this can still be sufficient to give you a good safe taste of downwinding.

The board below is 10'8" x 36" wide and is an inflatable.. Okay purists I know I know I know.. it's not a downwind board and you're not going to use this as a downwind board, but this was this guy's first time downwinding having paddled probably less than 10 times in the last 3 years, there were no other options available, and 1/2 way through the run, I swapped with him onto my 14' x 26" board, and he managed to make the transition and catch some real glides.

I admit, if I'd had an SIC F14, of course, he'd have gone on that, and he would have had a way better experience..
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 06:12:45 AM by Off-Shore »
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PonoBill

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2015, 07:31:04 AM »
Let's take this waves theory elsewhere. I'm sure I have some misconceptions about how this works since I'm self-taught about most things.
How about here: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,27961.0.html
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 07:33:31 AM by PonoBill »
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blueplanetsurf

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2015, 08:52:53 AM »
Yes.  And you might also add not standing period because too narrow a board.  Took a first timer from Maliko today.  He told me he had tons of experience at home on fairly narrow 26" race boards.  He wanted to rent a Bullet 17 and I wanted him to get a 30" wide.  We settled on a F-16, which is fairly forgiving but still didn't pan out for him.  He stood a little paddling out of the gulch and that was it.  As soon as we hit the wind line it was Pocohantas all the way.   Wasn't the first time I've seen this and try as I could, I couldn't convince him to ride a wider board. 

But he realized he had let his ego get the best of him and although he was on his knees the whole time, he did catch some glides and had a remarkably great sense of humor about it all.  At the end he told me it was one of the coolest things he had done.  So we all set bars as to what works and for some it doesn't take much.  It was a great day so even on his knees we got down the coast fairly quick.  I took the time to focus on steering and catching glides without paddling, which was pretty damn fun as well. 

But note to others.  If you come here to Maui and don't have some downwind time in the saddle (anywhere will do really), please check your egos about board width at the door if you have expectations of standing up for the run.  Even though it's downwind, the surface heaves around in a heavy handed manner.  Today had the added extra of Portuguese man of war.  The first timer didn't get stung and he was in the water plenty.  I got hit in the ankle sticking my feet in to slow the board waiting for him.

I have had this same scenario happen a few times.  Now when a first timer insists on a narrow performance board based on their flatwater racing experience, I often just let them take it and I will use the wider one that they should have picked myself and then switch boards with them as soon as we get in the rougher water and they finally realize the board is too tippy for them.
Robert Stehlik
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Hawaii's SUP HQ
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Eagle

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 09:00:05 AM »
Most definitely wider is better for first timers.

Have seen many times that even using F14s in just 10 kts is still not enough stability.  Going in over and over is not really fun - especially if one gets banged up going down.  Staying dry is always good.   :)

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PonoBill

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 09:53:58 AM »
I don't teach anyone, and don't guide--as HM knows I don't have anything approaching the kind of patience required, and my concentration is fleeting--I'd be off picking daisies when the newb wandered into outer Baldwin. But I did recently swap boards in sort of reverse of what Robert suggests, letting a relative newcomer try my Bullet when they inferred that the difference in speed between us was solely a result of my board vs. theirs. A cruel joke since Bullet V1 17's have a nasty learning curve, exacerbated by the fact that he was entirely correct, though it would be hard for him to realize that when he was laying in the water holding his shin.

Oh, wait, I did that with my brother too. I can be a mean bastard.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

coldsup

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 10:15:51 AM »
I don't teach anyone, and don't guide--as HM knows I don't have anything approaching the kind of patience required, and my concentration is fleeting--I'd be off picking daisies when the newb wandered into outer Baldwin. But I did recently swap boards in sort of reverse of what Robert suggests, letting a relative newcomer try my Bullet when they inferred that the difference in speed between us was solely a result of my board vs. theirs. A cruel joke since Bullet V1 17's have a nasty learning curve, exacerbated by the fact that he was entirely correct, though it would be hard for him to realize that when he was laying in the water holding his shin.

Oh, wait, I did that with my brother too. I can be a mean bastard.


 ;D ;D

blueplanetsurf

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2015, 02:49:35 PM »
One tip I give students when explaining how to time your paddlestroke, is to never paddle uphill - try and get a feel for the tail of the board getting lifted up and use that as a cue to put power in the paddlestroke. If the paddlestroke feels heavy, you are paddling uphill - if the paddlestroke feels light you are paddling downhill and not wasting energy. You will never catch a bump while board is sliding down the back of the wave in front (with nose up) so waiting for the lift to put the hammer down also teaches you to find the rhythm of when to paddle.

I also experience a lot of pretty decent wave-sup paddlers taking up downwinding have terrible paddling technique and I always find a flatwater paddlestroke technique lesson will improve the ability to catch bumps dramatically.

On the boards we use (Naish Glides/Javs) I always tell my students that they must be as far forward as they can without the nose ever digging in - water must always pass under the nose - not over it. This means only stepping back when nose starts pearling (or learning to anticipate this) and stepping back a split second before it does.

I agree mostly but I tell paddlers to anticipate the next bump and start paddling earlier, before the tail lifts up and then stop paddling and let it glide when the tail lifts up.  Basically paddling into the back of the wave in front of you as soon as it passes underneath when the nose is still up- start early and stop early.  If you wait until the tail lifts and then paddle, you often end up working too hard to chase after the bump and then don't have the strength needed to get into the next one.

I also find it easier to get glides by keeping the weight a little further back.  It seems easier to get some push from the bumps when you keep the weight forward but it also keeps the board from lifting and getting on a plane to get the faster, longer rides you really want.  Also I don't have to shift my feet around for every little bump, only the bigger ones.  That's just what works for me and keeping the weight more forward might work better for others and for different boards.
Robert Stehlik
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stoneaxe

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2015, 04:29:40 PM »
Well done Robert. I think mistake #1 should be choosing the wrong board though. Despite my experience I struggled the last time on Maui and that was just south side. Started out trying to use Bill's Bullet and it felt OK at 1st but once we got into the bumps I was having problems staying standing. Switched to headmounts old board which was much more like my Vec and it was far better though still not perfect.
The wrong board makes all the other mistakes happen more often and amplifies them.

Bob

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DavidJohn

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2015, 04:55:19 PM »
One tip I give students when explaining how to time your paddlestroke, is to never paddle uphill - try and get a feel for the tail of the board getting lifted up and use that as a cue to put power in the paddlestroke. If the paddlestroke feels heavy, you are paddling uphill - if the paddlestroke feels light you are paddling downhill and not wasting energy. You will never catch a bump while board is sliding down the back of the wave in front (with nose up) so waiting for the lift to put the hammer down also teaches you to find the rhythm of when to paddle.

I also experience a lot of pretty decent wave-sup paddlers taking up downwinding have terrible paddling technique and I always find a flatwater paddlestroke technique lesson will improve the ability to catch bumps dramatically.

On the boards we use (Naish Glides/Javs) I always tell my students that they must be as far forward as they can without the nose ever digging in - water must always pass under the nose - not over it. This means only stepping back when nose starts pearling (or learning to anticipate this) and stepping back a split second before it does.

I agree mostly but I tell paddlers to anticipate the next bump and start paddling earlier, before the tail lifts up and then stop paddling and let it glide when the tail lifts up.  Basically paddling into the back of the wave in front of you as soon as it passes underneath when the nose is still up- start early and stop early.  If you wait until the tail lifts and then paddle, you often end up working too hard to chase after the bump and then don't have the strength needed to get into the next one.

I also find it easier to get glides by keeping the weight a little further back.  It seems easier to get some push from the bumps when you keep the weight forward but it also keeps the board from lifting and getting on a plane to get the faster, longer rides you really want.  Also I don't have to shift my feet around for every little bump, only the bigger ones.  That's just what works for me and keeping the weight more forward might work better for others and for different boards.

I agree Robert.. I no longer agree with the whole don't paddle up hill thing.. You can see me at the 1.30 mark in this vid I'm paddling up hill.. or with the nose pointed up..



We used to try and do the one or two stroke take offs but we miss many good waves doing this because we don't have enough base-speed..

We used to paddle beside DW newbies and say stop paddling.. wait.. wait.. and just at the right moment say.. now. paddle now.. Occasionly they'd get it but most times not because they'd be a split second too late.. Now I tell then to start paddling while their nose is pointed up and dropping down the back of the wave in front so they have more base-speed for that right moment for when the nose is pointed downhill..


Off-Shore

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2015, 05:00:42 PM »
I've taken a short segment paddling a downbreezer to expand on DJ's comment about paddling "uphill" and not waiting for the tail to lift before making the first paddle plant when transitioning from one glide to the next. You'll see in the slo-mo replay that the first paddle plant is when board is effectively stalled and tail is down and nose is UP. The 2nd paddle plant (very shortly afterwards), is when the tail lifts and the nose is pointing DOWNHILL, and the third (if needed) is when I'm on the glide.

https://youtu.be/RvvwtCvfL38

When you get the timing right you sometimes only need the first paddle plant. I call this the "pole vault" plant, and it is very satisfying when it works as you come off one glide and with one stroke you launch yourself into the next. Of course the aim is to link one glide with the next without planting a paddle between them, but in reality, especially when starting out, linking paddle work is needed..
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 05:03:49 PM by Off-Shore »
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Luc Benac

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Re: Downwinders: the most common mistakes made by first timers
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2015, 05:09:28 PM »
I've taken a short segment paddling a downbreezer to expand on DJ's comment about paddling "uphill" and not waiting for the tail to lift before making the first paddle plant when transitioning from one glide to the next. You'll see in the slo-mo replay that the first paddle plant is when board is effectively stalled and tail is down and nose is UP. The 2nd paddle plant (very shortly afterwards), is when the tail lifts and the nose is pointing DOWNHILL, and the third (if needed) is when I'm on the glide.

https://youtu.be/RvvwtCvfL38

When you get the timing right you sometimes only need the first paddle plant. I call this the "pole vault" plant, and it is very satisfying when it works as you come off one glide and with one stroke you launch yourself into the next. Of course the aim is to link one glide with the next without planting a paddle between them, but in reality, especially when starting out, linking paddle work is needed..

Nice illustrative video.

Cheers,

Luc
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