Downbreezing vs Downwinding. Equipment and technique differences?

[Eagle]

Hey clay, that sounds on the money for us too.  In DB conditions it is a must to go across the waves to generate enough speed to lift and plane.  Once you make good use of the energy of the wave it is sooo much fun!

Yesterday did a DW run following a surfski championship race with about 80 paddlers and had wind about 10 kts building to around 25.  It seems for us around 10 kts is DB territory and at 15 kts we start planing a lot with this method.  At 20 we basically are constantly planing with a strong pull or tap tap tap to get in.  I think body weight has a lot to do with when you take off or stall using this method.  It seems timing and placement on the wave is crucial for this to work consistently.

Once we start seeing whitecaps all round -> DB turns into DW with a few power strokes to get in for us lightweight riders.  Between 8-10 kts we start seeing whitecaps and this is DB for us.  We have to work hard to get up to the speed of the waves.  At 12 we are already starting to plane consistently and are going good.  As wind picks up we just paddle less and less and weight more and more aft to keep the Bullet 14V2 nose from pearling too deep.  This windspeed is where the 14V1 shines as it has much more nose rocker to play with.  That board is actually perfect for our area for DB/DW conditions.  So comfortable and easy on plane with its double concave it is like cheating - much less walking required on that board.  At 20 the M-14 with more rocker becomes the board to be on.

Using your biggest paddle blade is a must in DB conditions.  We always use our 116 sq in Riviera Vantage R8.5 to catch waves as it works perfect for one strong pull in or tap tap tap.

It was so rough yesterday entering the river a few surfski racers got pulled out of the water and rescued according to my wife.

DB or DW -> both are super fun for us as we love the cheap thrills when our boards get smoking on plane!   

[Muskoka SUP]

Great synopsis Eagle !   I concur with your point on body weight and position on the board - very subtle shifts and steps back can make the difference between catching a glide and planing, or falling off the wave and wallowing.  This is especially true when winds fall between down breezing and true downwinding - somewhere in the 15 - 20 knot range.  Knowing the subtle nuances of your boards sweet spot is crucial to this as well. 

[Eagle]

Muskoka, you are right on the money!

When you talk about the subtle nuances of your boards sweet spot -> we know exactly what you mean.  Every board has its own and sometimes it is just a fine micro adjustment that gets you there.  Personally my DW skills are developing and slowly am getting better -> especially riding with others with much more expertise.

A group of 9 of us were out yesterday in good conditions for me.  We were riding 3 F16s - 3 Bullet 14V2s - 1 Bullet 14 - 1 Bullet 12'-6" - and my M-14.  This was one of our bigger days this year as we do not get big period swells or big wind like in other areas.  Out of experience and skill level I am probably towards the back as most of the lads have done Maliko runs and surf a lot.  There was talk of going to the Gorge - or having Jeremy guide us in Hawaii if we went over there as a group.  One of the most experienced knows him and Kai well and travels there often.

Anyways - have fun catching glides and planing! 

[Off-Shore]

Eagle, Your descriptions of downbreezing (DB) vs downwinwinding (DW) resonate with me well. I'm just putting a vid together of the Orient Point - Sag Harbor / Havens Beach downwind run I did last week in Long Island, and whilst I thought it was a downwinder, because the wind had too much westerly in the southerly we wanted, it became DB conditions with lots of tap tap tap to keep in the glide and going "down the line" resulted in the best speeds. Once I finish the vid I'll share so you'll see what I mean. I had not thought about the blade size in a DB vs a BW, but having a larger blade makes sense.

[Eagle]

Thanks OS look forward to that.

For racing using my SB High Aspect seems to work better and for DW my Riviera.  It seems that at high cadence high continuous output like in a race a bit smaller helps keep my upper body fresh.  In more intermittent high pull short duration like getting in a bump then gliding -> the bigger blade is much easier.

It is surprising how much extra pull you get.  Others friends do prefer smaller blades though - and use an assortment from QB - SB - BW - SIC - and Werner.  I guess it comes down to personal preference in the end and what you like the most.  It seems for me that it takes less effort and is faster getting in that's all.

I was amazed on the day of the surfski race when I paddled for 5 miles rounding a point all on the right side and was gliding and planing to the left down the line of the waves the entire way.  It was a continual plane moving from one wave up to the next ahead -> at that point though windspeed jacked up to around 20-25 kts.

If you pass through Vancouver on your way back to HK send me a PM and we can do that same 11 mi surfski-DW run.  At this time of year we get pretty consistent inflow winds between 10-25 kts when the temp gradient is right -> and surfski and DW riders like that run a lot.  We have an abbreviated 5 mi route that is good also but does not get the higher peak winds generally.  Some have paddled 20 and 30+ mile routes also in the area and that seems right up your alley.   

[clay]

Great comments!  I'm really appreciating this discussion.

Sweet spot and positioning on the board resonates with me, seems like the lighter the wind the smaller the sweet spot is and it's a lot more work to power up and catch bumps.  As the wind gets stronger it's easier to catch and ride longer and the sweet spot gets bigger.

I've been going to smaller blades with more flex in the blade and shaft and it feels better on my body.  My body aches when trying to power up and catch DB bumps using a bigger blade and stiff shaft, I prefer a higher cadence with less torque and more give.

I have tried a X14 in small DB, and while I felt faster I didn't feel like I was riding the bumps, felt more like I was slicing through them.  I've tried both the bullet V2 and the X14 at the same knee to waist high point break and I got longer rides on the X14 on the bigger waves, on the smaller ones the X14 seemed like more work to catch and stay on the wave than with the V2.  Also walking closer to the nose seemed to slow me down on the X14, where as this usually gives a little more speed on DW boards.  I'm not sure why?

[Eagle]

Hi clay, thinking about it a bit the sweet spot size for me is the same size in DB or DW -> but the position on the board moves further and further back to keep the nose up.  It gets harder and harder to balance especially on a board with a narrow tail or sharp pin as you do get hit with side waves sometimes.

Some can do it as seen in videos - and can see and appreciate the skill and finesse moves of riders like that.  My pay grade is substantially lower.  But I am truly amazed how quickly some can learn to DW like my wife.  She was petrified to SUP even in flat water at first - but in less than a year can paddle a variety of boards in pretty sloppy conditions.  She has gone from starting on a 30" touring board with a sharp pintail to a 27.5" race board and now to our 28" and 27.25" DW boards.

I think that using our Dominator has some comparison to the X-14 and on that board in DB it is very hard to catch medium waves with low wind -> even with high power output.  Not until wind is around 15-18 kts for me does the Dominator plane easily on its very stable fat tail.  This may be because I need to stand back too far to keep the very deep vee nose from pearling too deep -> so this probably causes a constant stall mode.  Others more skilled and powerful could surely get that board to go a lot better by deftly optimizing trim with light footwork.

The Bullet planing surf nose seems to keep the tip from loosing speed pearling - and seems to help when right up forward.   

[Off-Shore]

Thanks OS look forward to that.

For racing using my SB High Aspect seems to work better and for DW my Riviera.  It seems that at high cadence high continuous output like in a race a bit smaller helps keep my upper body fresh.  In more intermittent high pull short duration like getting in a bump then gliding -> the bigger blade is much easier.

It is surprising how much extra pull you get.  Others friends do prefer smaller blades though - and use an assortment from QB - SB - BW - SIC - and Werner.  I guess it comes down to personal preference in the end and what you like the most.  It seems for me that it takes less effort and is faster getting in that's all.

I was amazed on the day of the surfski race when I paddled for 5 miles rounding a point all on the right side and was gliding and planing to the left down the line of the waves the entire way.  It was a continual plane moving from one wave up to the next ahead -> at that point though windspeed jacked up to around 20-25 kts.

If you pass through Vancouver on your way back to HK send me a PM and we can do that same 11 mi surfski-DW run.  At this time of year we get pretty consistent inflow winds between 10-25 kts when the temp gradient is right -> and surfski and DW riders like that run a lot.  We have an abbreviated 5 mi route that is good also but does not get the higher peak winds generally.  Some have paddled 20 and 30+ mile routes also in the area and that seems right up your alley.   

Eagle, thanks again for you comments and your invite. Next time I am flying to or from the US, I'll see if I can transit through Vancouver for a downwind run. That would be awesome! And of course, if you ever find your way over here, you are most welcome! We may attempt our 27.5miler / 44km run again this Sunday if conditions line up correctly.

[HopkinsSUP]

Here we can get 5-14 day periods of 15-20 knot winds and I have been trying to work out if I am missing out on something with his weather pattern..now I may have found something.  The reef has cuts in them from 400yds to 1 mile wide we get some nice wave patterns in these channels when the wind is up.  It is not surfable but it could be some awesome downwind paddling.  Stay tuned

[Eagle]

Thanks also O-S, have been to HK a couple of times but not lately.  Here is the 11 miler and a 24 that friends also do.  We have not done the 24 personally but expect that we will at some point - it looks pretty straightforward and perfect for the 17.4 if that lines up -> or M-14 if not.  Am trying to arrange another 17.4 demo in higher winds as that board felt so serene and calm for me coming off my sprightly 14s.

We also have a Nanaimo to Vancouver run that is 32 that friends also have done.  Locally we have a small core of DW enthusiast riders and some really good local sponsored riders too.  Surfski - sailing - windsurfing - and kiteboarding are all very popular pastimes here.  Even our local ski mountains are within 25 min from our home -> so we are very fortunate to live in a place that allows fun activities year round.

Here are a couple of the DW runs and a view up our picturesque little inlet -

Best 

[clay]

Hi,

I've been playing around with different techniques in sub 20mph winds.  Here is a video I made with some graphics, and question I look forward to trying different ways to answer it.




"Wind was in the high teens for this run and gave me a chance to practice a few techniques I have been trying.

One is paddling in the trough at less than a 45 degree angle to the swell, I find I can paddle much faster this way as I don't run into the wave in front and I get a push from the wave behind me. And keeping up my speed helps me catch more waves and have longer rides.

Two is reading the water and noticing whether the peak of the bump is on my right or left.

Three is paddle steering towards the peak which is steeper and offers a faster longer ride. Also when I catch the wave, using the paddle to control speed and stay in the sweet spot of the wave, and brace to keep my balance.

And four is keeping my feet in the sweet spot of the board, the balance point where I get the most glide from the wave. Moving forward or backward to keep the nose from running into the wave in front of me or having the wave pass me by.

Having a lot of fun trying these moves and seeing the outcome. So cool and amazing to be able to ride such small waves, and the shear abundance of these waves every day is incredible. So stoked!

I hope this is helpful and you have as much fun watching and surfing and I am"   

[PonoBill]

Clay, pretty good in general. Riding small bumps is great practice. Even when you get into bigger water you'll find the little bumps are the key to catching the big bumps. You fell because you straightened up. If you bent your front knee and kept the board flatter you'd probably make that. You might try some gentle cross-bow steering to aim the nose into bumps instead of trying to steer the whole board. you bring the paddle across the bow from the side you're paddling on and dip the edge into the water with a good solid brace. If you keep it close to the nose you get a gentle steer. Further out it's a powerful direction change. And finally you're putting power into the paddle when it's past your feet. Try reaching way out and just patting the water, just little catch and pull and get the paddle right out. Be extreme about how short you pull, even if you feel like you're applying no power. You'll catch bumps and then assume its a fluke, and go back to your evil ways. But keep trying it. If nothing else it's a way to catch bumps when nothing else seems to work.

[Eagle]

Instead of drag bracing left which turned and stalled you to the left -> would have accelerated and powered hard on the left to go right and straight.  Once you slowed down it looked like the swell caught your fin and side of board which lead to the round-up twist and broach.  Interestingly - rarely do we ever brace and slow to wave speed when wind is less than 25 kts -> we always time to paddle super hard to get on the bump so that it picks up the tail to launch the board forward and down.

Today was so far forward of the handle that 50% of my M-14 submerged about a foot deep.  I had so much of a wave and wind push -> plus full force paddle power that I scooted and planed over small wavelets right into the swell ahead.  I took a step back which put me on plane but needed another 2 steps to raise the nose higher and stall on the tail.  Luckily stayed dry but the slowing force knocked me down to my knees and almost launched me off my board.  After that mistake focused a bit more at the task at hand and all was good - the run stayed completely dry -> and was one of my best and fastest all year.  Super fun.   

[clay]

You might try some gentle cross-bow steering to aim the nose into bumps instead of trying to steer the whole board. you bring the paddle across the bow from the side you're paddling on and dip the edge into the water with a good solid brace. If you keep it close to the nose you get a gentle steer. Further out it's a powerful direction change. And finally you're putting power into the paddle when it's past your feet.

Excellent post Bill.  I think if i understand correctly you're talking about rudder steering with the paddle blade in front of me?

I was fortunate to attend a paddling clinic with Dave Kalama and Jimmy Terrell yesterday.  Paddle skills are relatively new to me as I barely touched a paddle until 2008, I learned a lot yesterday.  Jimmy was doing things with the paddle I had never seen before, I am very impressed.  I saw him steer with the blade in front of him up by the nose, and move the board with a feather motion, really cool.

[clay]

Instead of drag bracing left which turned and stalled you to the left -> would have accelerated and powered hard on the left to go right and straight.  Once you slowed down it looked like the swell caught your fin and side of board which lead to the round-up twist and broach.  Interestingly - rarely do we ever brace and slow to wave speed when wind is less than 25 kts -> we always time to paddle super hard to get on the bump so that it picks up the tail to launch the board forward and down.

Today was so far forward of the handle that 50% of my M-14 submerged about a foot deep.  I had so much of a wave and wind push -> plus full force paddle power that I scooted and planed over small wavelets right into the swell ahead.  I took a step back which put me on plane but needed another 2 steps to raise the nose higher and stall on the tail.  Luckily stayed dry but the slowing force knocked me down to my knees and almost launched me off my board.  After that mistake focused a bit more at the task at hand and all was good - the run stayed completely dry -> and was one of my best and fastest all year.  Super fun.   

I hear you eagle. 
Sounds like you had an epic run, glad to hear it!

What I was trying to do was go left down the line like I would on a single wave ocean surfing, and then after it flattened out steering right and hopefully doing the same thing on a right...repeat.    My understanding of what happened is that as I was going across the swell the nose touched down and caught the outside edge and steered me further left slowing me down and upsetting my balance.  I was bracing in an attempt to balance and to keep from running into bump in front of me.  I'm wondering if I had put more weight on the inside rail I could have rode it out...or maybe stepping back and lifting the nose and even turning more left I might have stayed out of the flats?