Whats so bad about PFDs?

[feet]

I'll wear one based on the conditions, where I am paddling, and with whom. Its a typical ww kayaking pfd made by stohlquist.  I dont find it uncomfortable, nor do I think it significantly impedes my swimming ability. I use it to carry stuff as well, like clipping a camelback to it etc.  I will also wear it if I am with the my kids - theyre both young (3 & 5) and still learning to swim and I think it sets a good example.

If I will be paddling in a stones throw of the shoreline, I'll go without. I've never been hassled by anyone.  It's quite enjoyable to be so free, but then I have to fight the urge to paddle in the buff... 


Part of the argument against PFD regs stems from old white guys bristling at the idea of being told what to do.  LOL - have fun with that one.

[pdxmike]

Part of the argument against PFD regs stems from old white guys bristling at the idea of being told what to do.  LOL - have fun with that one.

That and the deaths.


Not that not wanting to be told what to do (i.e. given the choice between meeting a useless rule and or being punished--paying a large fine is this case) isn't a perfectly legitimate reason to oppose the rules by itself.  That's often a main reason regulations are opposed and overturned--or wars are fought, for that matter.  And the people making the rules are probably as old and white, for whatever reason that's relevant.

[SuppaTime]

... old white guys bristling at the idea of being told what to do. 

Well, Ben Franklin admonished us all to "question authority", and come to think of it he was an old white guy. Timothy Leary gave the phrase new life when he made the same statement back in the day. But of course only us old farts would remember that.

Truth be told, being old and grumpy is not the exclusive domain of white guys.

[lucabrasi]

If I will be paddling in a stones throw of the shoreline, I'll go without. I've never been hassled by anyone.  It's quite enjoyable to be so free, but then I have to fight the urge to paddle in the buff... 

Part of the argument against PFD regs stems from old white guys bristling at the idea of being told what to do.  LOL - have fun with that one.

Hey, I'm almost one of them. Some people think I am already.
 I can see it now....old white guys paddling around naked to make a statement about pfds and being told what to do in general.
"..they are the League of OWGAPFDR and they are here today paddling naked to protest not just pfd rules but also rules in general. A sea of silver against the blue background. As you can see they are shaking their paddles......really kind of an onery bunch...back to you Brian." 

And, when its nice, unhook your leash after a workout, fall backward, and chase your board.

As soon as you bring up unhooking the leash part.....well, enough said. Don't think anyone ever suggested going without one as part of the debate....in fact, as everyone knows that is where much of the lunacy of the law comes into play and yeah, the difference in getting back into or onto a boat or any kayak vs. onto a board is apples and oranges, leash or no leash, wore out or not.

Paddling this summer we ran across some launch points that had loner pfds out hanging up. Take it with you, put it back. Something like that I would bet the theft rate was pretty low and had never saw that before. 3,4, maybe 6 hanging at a time. All sorts of signs around them with different sizes, etc. Not the cheapy orange ones but a notch above or so. There always was some hanging there. I actually thought that was pretty cool when I saw it. Kind of amazed at it. I think I thought about taking a photo and posting it. This was mostly at popular free areas, non daily use fee areas tho I think it said some branch from the state used some money from some program to fund it. Far better and more useful than giving them away at some event tent I think.

Timothy Leary, was he always old or did he just always looked old?
off to polish my Torino.

[pdxmike]

Truth be told, being old and grumpy is not the exclusive domain of white guys.

Good point. Plus I'm not a fan of people dismissing others as "old white guys" or "NIMBYs" or whatever.  A few years ago a friend of mine asked me to help her and her neighbors oppose a Holocaust Memorial proposed to be built in a park across the street from her house.  Nobody was opposed to the memorial, just the particular location, and for all kinds of valid reasons.  But we got labeled and hated right away.  The local Catholic paper wrote an editorial calling us "anti-Semites" and said our grandchildren should be ashamed of us.  Not a great thing to happen when some of the neighbors had grandchildren in Catholic schools who came home from school telling their parents they learned at school they should hate their grandparents.  An elderly couple asked me to set up a meeting with the Archbishop to talk about the editorial. When we met, he told us we reminded him of the people who spit on Martin Luther King, Jr. when he marched in Chicago.  They were devout Catholics who were so upset by that they moved to Canada.


So it was pretty interesting when my friend, the "ringleader" of the "anti-Semites" talked at a City Council hearing.  She was about 80 years old, and a German Jew.  She told the Council how she had escaped as a child from the Nazis, and basically been smuggled to America, but almost her entire family had been captured and killed in concentration camps.  The reason she didn't want the memorial in that location was it was directly outside her bedroom window, and she didn't want that memory to be set off the first thing every day when she woke up. 


So people can argue the facts, but it's never a good idea to dismiss your opponents based on labels or perceived intentions.

[PonoBill]

Part of the argument against PFD regs stems from old white guys bristling at the idea of being told what to do.  LOL - have fun with that one.

Really?

[yugi]

We have the same rule here. It’s pretty logical as a general boating rule that there be a floatation device per person on board. Not everyone out on boats are very open water savvy. Nor are all noobs who venture out on a SUP. So I see the logic in the rule.

It’s how it’s enforced that makes the difference, and, to a large extent, it’s the relationship you build with them. I’ve done all watersports in our waters since I was a kid and have lived through new watersports (windsurfing, kitesurfing) coming to terms with local water patrols and law. As we were the first to SUP in our waters we early on sought to [sort of] comply by [mostly] taking impact vests with us. Just to show good will. Impact vest are great to have along anyway if it gets a bit chilly as it can very quickly here. By [mostly] wearing impact vests local law has pretty much tolerated them in lieu of pdf’s. It makes sense as an active sport to tolerate something that actually is wearable. We often cross paths and stop and chat and each time we tell them how a leash is more important anyway (and we always  use them). We even have a national SUP association where we are trying to get leash-in-lieu-of-pfd accepted in the legislation. That’s a far reach but at least the local law gets some exposure to real actual logic of the sport. Current legislation is no pdf is required if within 300m from shore.

We’ve built enough mutual respect of each other (law vs paddlers) that they are becoming even more tolerant. They can tell the difference between experienced paddlers and novices and they never bother us any more even if we are far from shore without pdf’s.

Last year a new water legislation came into effect where only the huge pfd’s with a big floating collar behind the neck were legal. Furthermore that even in sailraces everyone must wear them. It has created a huge stir in the watersports communities and it is trying to be reversed. Net effect on the water vis a vis the law for us. Nada. I think they became even more tolerant of us as they saw we acted within reason and also there haven’t been any serious accidents involving SUP.

[HPWA Jack]

Truth be told, being old and grumpy is not the exclusive domain of white guys.

Old Grumpy Naked White Guys unite!!

Well, that aint much of a battle call.  The self-rescue drill comment had to do with putting the real safety issues into perspective.  Assuming self-regulation became the "law of the land" tommorrow, and this debate was about cover your ass instead of regs, I would still advocate the self-rescue drill to remind myself and teach others that it can be a long swim to your board when you are tired.

Paddling in a pond and downwinding on the Columbia are very different venue conditions and float plans.  In a boat, we plan ahead.  A SUP is a boat in some ways.  I don't know that I agree its a vessel, but I love a good hull if it's 12 ft six or forty two feet.  Same decision sets to be made.  What do I need?  What might I need?  What is the worst that could happen?  Plan accordingly.

[robcasey]

Always a fun topic   i think it's something that varies per region, type of water, current or waves and water temp. 

Reasons why I wear a vest style PFD:
- I don't fall as deep in the water, thus recovery on board is quicker.
- Today wind chill is in the 30's (F) and the added insulation around my core keeps me warmer.
- I like the pockets for storing stuff, much of what I have in lessons - watch, VHF, whistle, snack bar, extra gloves of hood, camera. Contents vary per paddle. 
- I find my PFD's at kayak stores which have a wider selection than SUP/surf shops thus can find a variety of options allowing for comfort (men and women) and flexibility (no issue there).  Currently use MTI and the Astral Green Jkt for ww. 
- For rivers and tidal rapids, we attach the leash to the quick release belt vs ankle.  u live a little longer that way.  The orange blocky things are a joke, get a real pfd by companies such as those above or kokatat, stohlquist, etc.
- alternatively i can sit on my pfd on a cold beach or stand on it in a cold parking lot while changing. 
- i can add a tow line to my quick release belt in big water, currents etc helps with towing issues. 

Downside of a vest PFD?
- certainly harder to get on boards, especially 6" inflatables and race boards with carved out decks (5-6" rails). Solution, kick feet to bring body to surface then pull on across on board. 
- swimming.  but it's rare i'll break a leash on flat water and loose my board. 
- not fashionable.  i gave up on fashion and looking cool in college.  no issues there. 
- heat - in Fl, socal or Hawaii etc it will be hot to wear especially in racing, DW, fitness sup, etc. 

Downside of a C02 PFD?
- Most haven't pulled the string and know what happens or how to actually put it on.  Not as easy as you think.  And many don't have a cartridge in there or have the parachute like packing of the mae west vest interfere with the pull string mechanism.  solution - buy an additional cartridge, get the water and pull string while holding onto your gear (if no leash) and try to put on. 

- for those that prefer pure minimalism, it may interfere with your waist somehow, or not.
- sometimes the vest falls out of the velcro bag when paddling. 

We're not big fans of the PFD on the board. obviously it's great for yoga and such, but in paddling out over waves your pfd will throw you forward if a wave rushes over your nose.  no leash?  you're on your own when you loose the board, and pfd attached. 

each his own. but we do question the guy we see often in Seattle who goes out in winter with only a tshirt and shorts, no leash or pfd and poor skills, several miles offshore.  only on blue sky (but not warm) days.  hopefully we won't be spending our day off hauling him back in that one time it doesn't work out.  that's when your personal choice affects others.

[ford]

I'm late to this thread...

I'm not big on regulation. I think in most cases for SUP it should be up to the user.

Now for boats, there should be one on board available to each person.

Personally... I use a kayak style most of the time when I go out, especially alone. I also have a leash attached to my leg.

I promised my wife I would use one when out alone.

I am thinking about getting one of the wasteband emergency pfds. There are times in the summer where it will certainly be more comfortable in the heat of Texas.

[PonoBill]

These threads always wander. The issue has never been that PFDs are bad, it's been opposition to a truly stupid regulation. Not just because geezers don't like being told what to do, but because the regulation not only doesn't enhance safety, it harms it. On any warm weekend the Columbia will be full of newb on SUPs, paddling with lifejackets tied to the nose of their board and no leash. the local cops enforce the regulation. Those people are abiding by the regs, they won't be ticketed, and they are in serious danger.

That's it, that's all of it.

[pdxmike]

Remember, one pfd is not always enough to be legal.  All you people on unlimiteds 16' or more should note this important pfd safety requirement: 

No person may use a recreational vessel 16 feet or more in length unless one throwable PFD is onboard in addition to the total number of wearable PFDs required in paragraph (a) of this section.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=5ea8445412d3ecb2a08385ac83abec8d&node=se33.2.175_115&rgn=div8

Yes, for sneaky people thinking they can go to the definitions to find they are exempt--per 175.3 a SUP is a "recreational vessel":
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?n=pt33.2.175#se33.2.175_113

Won't get into flare or other additional visual distress signal requirements for unlimiteds since this is a pfd thread.

[yugi]

I feel a 15'11" class catching on

[yugi]

These are pretty cool and seem to satisfy our local law enforcement Re the pdf rule.

   https://www.restube.com

Doesn't feel like you are wearing anything and even hard to notice someone is wearing one

[Area 10]

These threads always wander. The issue has never been that PFDs are bad, it's been opposition to a truly stupid regulation. Not just because geezers don't like being told what to do, but because the regulation not only doesn't enhance safety, it harms it. On any warm weekend the Columbia will be full of newb on SUPs, paddling with lifejackets tied to the nose of their board and no leash. the local cops enforce the regulation. Those people are abiding by the regs, they won't be ticketed, and they are in serious danger.

That's it, that's all of it.

Well, thankfully I don't have to put up with this sort of nonsense because I live in Europe, and generally we are mostly quite happy for people to kill themselves through stupidity. And I can entirely see why this makes you mad. But to play devil's advocate here, if you believe in freedom, why is being able to leave the pfd on your board worse than being forced to wear it? As it stands, people have a choice to wear it (sensible) or not (not so sensible, for most, in most conditions). If instead everyone was required to actually wear a pfd then people on boats etc would have to also, unless you could somehow have special rules just for SUPs - in which case you've got the problem of definition (eg. what uniquely defines a SUP? Is a SUP still a SUP if you aren't standing on it? Does a kayak that you stand up on suddenly become a SUP? Etc etc).

If the argument is that leashes should replace PFDs then we've already seen deaths because of leash use (as well as deaths because of failure to wear a pfd). Has anyone died because they were wearing a pfd?

So it seems to me, as an outsider, that not being compelled to wear a pfd is better this having to. No one is stopping you wearing a leash. So, other than having no regulations at all (like we don't, wear I live), maybe you have a better scenario than many you might otherwise get (assuming your priority is the freedom of the individual to decide for themselves what level of risk they will tolerate)?

But maybe I'm missing the point entirely.