Author Topic: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?  (Read 6835 times)

supthecreek

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techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« on: January 08, 2015, 08:39:31 AM »
Several shapes in the surf and SUP world have collided in my morning web session.

There is the Starboard "Nut" in SUP
and the "Cornice" in surfboards

Both have "sidecuts" similar to snowboards... but it was the obvious parallel made by the "Cornice" surfboard that got me wondering.

So I researched the physics of how a sidecut  works in a snowboard turn, thinking that it wouldn't apply to waves, due to the lack of a solid surface.

I found a great physics lesson by the maker of Donek Snowboards. Very geeky, very simple demonstrations, very worth my 15 minutes
There were 4 really key points at:
9:30
12:30
13:00
14:30
(but don't skip the demonstrations !)

I saw correlation to the arc of a carving surf turn...

I know the Starboard "Nut" was designed around a different  theory, roughly speaking: "shortboard tail ~longboard glide"

I started to think about our need to "bury" the rail to allow for a carving turn and how the outer arc of a surfboard's elliptical shape needed to be constantly "overcome".

It seems like the act of "burying" the rail is akin to dragging an anchor.

Now that I think about it.... the very shape of a "traditional" design is at odds with some "turn" physics. I know the arc helps the board turn, but... can it be improved?

What if you could make a SUP with variable flex, like a snowboard, so that you could use the sidecut progression theory used by "Donek" to carve a more efficient turn?

The wider nose and tail necessary for this type of board fits nicely with the current interest in Sim & Tomo style boards...and overall stability.

Ok rippers, teckies and shapers... thoughts?

You may need to watch the video before any of this makes sense....
I'll include some pics that sparked my interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE1YdDj_L0o

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starman

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 09:38:59 AM »
At first blush I would say no. Snow and ice is water in a solid form. We play in water in it's liquid form. Not much in common because of the different properties of water when in a solid form and a liquid form. An example would be volume. It's a big issue with SUP design but I doubt much consideration is placed on volume when building a snowboard.

supsurf-tw

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 10:59:24 AM »
Sidecuts have been around awhile. They just look too damn weird to me. Morey had the Swizzle and they appeared to work pretty good.
Boards:

 
8-10 x 31 Egg
8-11 X 32 Double wing Fangtail Tom Whitaker
8-6 X 30 1\2  Inbetweener Tom Whitaker
8-4 x 30 Hyper quad Tom Whitaker (wife's now)
8-4 X 31 1\4.  Round (wide) Diamond Tail Quad Tom Whitaker
 9-4 X 30 1\2. Swallow Stinger Quad Tom Whitaker (ex wifes now)
10-0 Brusurf for teach

supthecreek

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 03:27:42 PM »
the key point in my question was:
"What if you could make a SUP with variable flex, like a snowboard?"

design side cuts on a slightly flexible SUP... so they bend to carve in a similar fashion to the way a snowboard bends on the snow during a turn.

Water has a degree of rigidity at speed... that is what "planing" is all about.... bare feet skim nicely across the "solid" surface at 50 mph.

If we could develop a board shaped similar to all the "previous" narrow waisted boards, BUT... one that could flex along its rail, to carve without all the penetration necessary with an elliptical shape. Think of the speed you could carry through a turn.... why, we would all be like Kelly ;D

and it probably, really is necessary to watch the entire video to conceptualize the question.

which in reality, may be total a waste of time... but... who knows?


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southwesterly

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 08:53:28 PM »
Side cuts have been around since the dawn of man.

PonoBill

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 09:37:16 PM »
Now we know where big dong went.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

starman

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2015, 10:49:10 PM »
Oh dear,,,,ok back to the subject of flex. If you search on George Greenough you will find a fair bit of info on the flex boards he was building. There has been attempts at flex tails as well. Check out the work of Bob Tinkler. http://www.surfsyndicate.com/images/herbie-fletcher-ad.jpg
In any event the idea never gained much traction and is now part of surfing history.

southwesterly

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 07:41:30 AM »


I started to think about our need to "bury" the rail to allow for a carving turn and how the outer arc of a surfboard's elliptical shape needed to be constantly "overcome".

It seems like the act of "burying" the rail is akin to dragging an anchor.

Now that I think about it.... the very shape of a "traditional" design is at odds with some "turn" physics. I know the arc helps the board turn, but... can it be improved?



Who's going to tell Taylor Knox he's "dragging an anchor".

supthecreek

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 08:15:08 AM »
ok... so we have pointed out that pointy surfboards work and flex has been tried and discarded.

Heck... even side cuts have been done before. But then we knew that.

Apparently approaching sidecut combined with flexibility is not a subject for discussion. ;D

back to line-up conflicts and politics.

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surfcowboy

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 10:32:06 PM »
http://www.theinertia.com/surf/the-cornice-might-be-firewires-weirdest-board-ever/

Anyone who thinks they know exactly what does and does not work in the water is lying.

We are still in the infancy of design and will stay there as long as kids who need to be cool determine what boards get built and sold. I'm glad old guys ride SUPs. None of us cares as long as it works.

blueplanetsurf

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 11:25:31 PM »
Sidecuts have been around for a while, Thomas Meyerhoffer has been making longboard shapes with sidecuts for years.  They seem to work well but have not really taken off.  Sidecuts are also common on flowrider boards, they look a lot like snowboards actually.  There is no reason why sidecuts could not work on water.  Putting the widest points and the volume under the feet makes sense and the rail line follows the flow of the turn.  They probably need some more development work but it has potential, for sure.  Here are a few images I found online.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 11:27:33 PM by blueplanetsurf »
Robert Stehlik
Blue Planet Surf Shop, Honolulu
Hawaii's SUP HQ
http://www.blueplanetsurf.com

supthecreek

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2015, 06:33:35 AM »
Allright... maybe we will discuss this..... Thanks cowboy and BP  ;D

Again... my attention is on snowboard physics being applied to SUP... not surfboards.... there is a big difference to my theory.

The physics demos and discussion in the video made me revisit the hourglass shaped boards... but not for the reason they were originally designed.

In OZ... there is huge excitement over "Tomo" inspired designs... with the "Minion" boards by DEEP leading the pack.

I said to myself "the hourglass and Minion design's  may be able to combine around the snowboard "turn physics"

Reasoning being:
The hourglass allows
1 - volume front and back
2 - flex to be designed into the waist area to facilitate the rail to carve as a snowboard does.
3 - Donek's variable sidecut allows different rail lines for different turns

Minion design allows
1 - narrower overall
2 - nose and tail features that offer maximum volume and stability at the shortest lengths.

I think the theory would work best if the "waist" was moved toward the tail, since the rail most involved in the turning, is on the back 3rd of a board

again.... totally different theory to the hourglass shape than the "Nut" or surfboards
it is NOT about achieving a "shortboard" tail design like the "Nut"

it is about applying snowboard physics to SUP turns.... specifically "Donek's" variable curve design which would offer different rail shape for different turns.... tighter curve aft for snap turns and softer curve forward for longer, drawn out turns.

I call this design "The BomB"
it moves the curve aft....under the riders feet during a turn

if sufficient volume could be incorporated in the "float" areas, then the "waist" flex area could be made out of a strong flexible "connector" devoid of the foam that limits flex. Think hollow carbon paddle shaft flex and strength.

now were rolling........
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kneecapSUP

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 06:34:07 AM »
Hey Creek- as has been shown,  side cuts have been around for a while. I rode a 9'r similar to that Starboard one and it was a hoot! It had more of the Meyerhoffer tail and seemed to turn well and not just from the tail. You could turn the board on rail from father up than a similar length longer board (for me).

As for variable flex,  as mentioned Firewire had been on it for a while. Infinity is getting into it out here with various  carbon patterns and more. All i really know about flex is that i love that feeling when a board loads up then slingshots as you release, but it's definitely something i need to learn more about.

FinnPaddle

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 10:34:20 AM »
Quote
Snow and ice is water in a solid form. We play in water in it's liquid form. Not much in common because of the different properties of water when in a solid form and a liquid form.

Yes but in its most "liquid" form (powder snow) snow tends to act more like water...

Prove here...every snow geek these days knows that for pure powder sidecut = unnecessary (and you can still " carve" turns but also "slide it out" at will):



Correct me if I'm wrong (= know not that much about water shapes in detail)

supthecreek

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Re: techies and shapers... can snowboard physics be adapted to SUP?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 01:20:02 PM »
Great vid! Go BIG... and he certainly does!
I loved the edit and the last South Park audio sound bite :D

sheesh....I thought I was crazy going off a 50 meter ski jump on my 207 Rossie slalom skis. It was my first time off a real ski jump... last time as well   ::)


Quick... somebody build the "BomB^SUP and tell me if it works!
The flexi-connector will be the tricky part. Get to work.
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