Author Topic: Testing SUP on Flat Water  (Read 13347 times)

photofr

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Testing SUP on Flat Water
« on: August 19, 2014, 09:45:04 AM »
Has any one ever tested board shapes on flat water FOR SPEED / EFFICIENCY ?

Flat Water
By definition, flat water could be so many things. For now, let's just say that it's a body of water completely flat (sheltered from waves and wind).

Shape
From previous surfski, K1, outrigger canoe, windsurfing and surfing, I conclude that the primary goal of a SUP is to glide, the second (perhaps) to plane.
Since gliding requires moving water, I am inclined to conclude that the best shape may very well be a rounded hull.
Since "rounded hull" can be interpreted in so many ways, I will use known boats to illustrate.

The hull speed of a SUP could (perhaps) be improved by having a hull that resembles that of a Fenn XT or that of a Epic V8 surfski.
For those unfamiliar with surfskis, I believe that the hull of a SUP for flat water should be shaped closer to a kayak than to that of a surfboard / windsurfboard.

I say this, because I have tested Kayak Hull - just never tested SUP.
My finding was that a flat hull is much slower.

Questions
Do you believe that a SUP for flat water should be round or flat, and why ?
Do you believe that a SUP with a Fenn XT hull (or similar), 17 to 18 feet long, 23" wide would be faster or slower than the same board in 12'6 ?
To add stability, do you believe we could simply flank the sides to create more surface area ?

Keeping in mind
For flat water, we could make this board very light by making it hollow.
Strength is not what I am after - speed is.
Feet position would be lowered to the max to add stability.
Transport isn't an issue - I am used to carying surfskis all over the place (like my Fenn Spark that goes everywhere I go) - it's nearly 22 feet long.

By all means, do not agree with me. I am actually looking for FACTS to see what a theory could amount to. All feedback is welcome.
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Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 02:11:39 AM »
Speed needs a bit of strength.

Easy to protect your board at the start of the day, but not so easy after a 30 mile paddle along the Thames. Tired body etc, board slips from tired hands, crashes on the floor as you try to load it on the roof.

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Area 10

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 03:38:14 AM »
These issues have been debated endlessly here and on other SUP forums. I suggest that you try paddling a few race SUPs and then come back when you have that experience behind you, and have a more specific question. We all know what makes a board fast. The issue is how to make a board fast *and* useable, especially for the average person and in a wide variety of conditions.

yugi

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 04:46:32 AM »
I agree w A10. Photofr,  here's a good test. Go try a Naish Catalina and after that hop on a modern race shape with a flat bottomed hull and hard rails like a 2015 Naish. That simple test will help you understand differences, and what A10 is talking about. There are other rounded hulls close to your theory but the Naish Catalina is a very good example of everything you describe.

Re. your premise "For now, let's just say that it's a body of water completely flat (sheltered from waves and wind)":
If that is all you will ever encounter, then fine. Strikes me as utopic but... whatever floats your boat. My advice is pick your board for the worst conditions you will encounter. That is where the true character of a board will show itself. That is where you most need your board to be your friend.

The proof is in the pudding. You could just look at how race boards, which are built for speed but also need to keep the rider onboard, have evolved since 2009. That is the collective conclusion of a large group of talented riders and the factual data input of their race results.

I get the impression most SUP designers were coming from the same premise as you back in 2009 or 2010. Fact: things changed. To flat bottoms. Which should answer your first question, explanation included above.

Second question: duh.

Third question: pas compris


PonoBill

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 06:20:29 AM »
I had a round-bottom unlimited SUP--a Penetrator 572--based largely of surfski design with some flattening to make it rideable. Unfortunately it was damaged early in my stewardship of the board so it gained a lot of weight being repaired. Even with my considerable weight on it, it was 22" wide at the waterline and 18' 10" long. It had so much glide it was hard to stop--on occassion I had to jump off and grab it to get it out of a little swell or keep it from running up the beach. The deck was 25" wide, so it had a lot of secondary stability, but the constant lateral roll was sometimes disconcerting.

Starboard has a new unlimited board for 2015 that is probably what you're thinking of doing. I suspect it's expensive, but if you want to go fast, that's one way.

This fuzzy video is of the Penetrator in a tiny swell on Maui. What's not obvious is that the reason I'm paddling so ineffectively is that it's on a glide in the swell from start to end of the video. In fact I'm still in the glide when the video stops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWvSr4fbTZc

I'm not sure that the evolution if current race boards will tell anyone about optimal shapes. With the exception of channel crossings, racing SUPs are confined to 14' -- and elite class has been confined to 12'6" -- which creates an entirely artificial design dynamic. The difficulty of even trimming such short boards for anyone but the lightest paddlers dictates specific shapes and volume placement.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 06:28:47 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

stoneaxe

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 06:58:55 AM »
There is no perfect. Too many variables and results are only as accurate as they apply to a given paddler. The Penetrator, as amazingly fast as it was, didn't move at all for me....I was in the water most of the time. Secondary stability in my case = fall often.
Bob

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Chilly

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 09:25:46 AM »
I've tried rounded bottom boards and they do glide well in flat conditions. On the other hand I found them difficult to turn. They wear you out particularly your legs. Something as simple as moving your foot throws you off your rhythm. I think canoe or yacht designs don’t translate to speed in the SUP world because the engine (paddler) is standing (top heavy). You would have to get the paddler feet below the waterline and when you do that it’s no longer a SUP, it becomes some form of stand up canoeing that doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
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PonoBill

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 10:01:46 AM »
There's a lot of benefit to feet at or near the waterline, and it's not just stability. It's faster. Round bottom boards need a rudder. One major flaw with the penetrator was that using the rudder required moving your foot too much, which is indeed a big problem, especially if you're old and creaky with marginal balance. I changed it out to a SIC mechanism which worked better, but if any board called for an RC rudder/autopilot it was the Penetrator.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

photofr

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 11:32:36 PM »
Thanks for your many replies; there's a lot of really good info up there.

Goal of 3 Boards:
Flat Water (lake) for speed on the flattest conditions (I did say FLAT)
Downwind Machine (Molokai-style crossing)
Touring Board for longer trips - 4 hours to 4 days
Note (1) - I am missing the race board for Beach Race etc… but racing isn't my goal - wonderful glide is.
Note (2) - I could probably get away (for my needs) with just two boards - Flat Water & Downwind Board (because in theory, I could use the DW machine for touring).
Note (3) - At 125 pounds and quick on my feet, I don't mind the most unstable board for flat water conditions.

Naish Catalina:
I don't believe that this board is still produced by Naish. Too bad, because it could have been great for an all-around board - not the best DW, but really good compromise for everything else.

Penetrator:
Not much info about this board online - at least, I couldn't find much. The idea sounds good - for DW.
Based on what you guys are describing this board to be, it's shape is the basis of what I am looking for - needing only slight modifications.
No real data or images of its hull - but I am intrigued.

Rudders:
I have no problems placing a rudder on my future DW board, and actually would prefer that.
I am also thinking of placing a rudder on my flat water board, for the same reason we added a rudder on our flat water K1 kayaks to race in a straight line FASTER.

Different Boards:
It gets complicated when I talk about different boards (DW, Flat water, etc…). Heck, it's already hard enough describing the needs for a single board.
For now, I am focused on a single board: a true flat water SUP.

NEEDS:
Since I don't weight very much (125 pounds at best), and since I am still athletic, I am first and foremost looking for a board that will glide at its best.
This board should give me a workout, otherwise I will be bored.
It probably will be equivalent to a 20 to 22" board with a flat bottom - but since I believe that it should be rounded, it's more likely that it will have 24" at the waterline.
This board may end up being very unstable, but I am okay with that. I have paddled a Sabre (14 x 27) in rough ocean for more than 3 hours without feeling challenged enough.

Racing:
You might shake your heads, but right now, I am looking for glide. Of course, that also amounts to speed, and could be interpreted as RACE… but racing isn't what I am looking for right now. Mainly, there aren't too many real-flat-water-racing in France that I know of (key words: Flat Water).
The most important aspect of this new board would be GLIDE - I keep repeating it because I am looking for the feeling I have when I even hand-paddle my surfski… the thing just keeps going !

Recap and Specs of what I think will work:
Flat water board, say 17 feet, 20 to 24" wide at the waterline, rudder, very rounded hull, lowered deck, very very light (20 pounds or so).
It seems to me that what I am asking for doesn't exist right now.

SUP is very new to me (I have only paddled for 2 months), but the water isn't something I am new to.
More specifically, I feel that SUP is also a very new sport as far as its development is concerned. Took surfskis over 20 years to level out, meanwhile, SUP has been further developing only during the last 8 years. My regret right now is that SUP are built by what seems to be: surf shapers, or windsurf shapers. It would be most interesting to see them develop with molds (like surfskis, therefore hollow and re-enforced under foot sections).

Simply put, has any one ever successfully paddled a modified surfski (like the Blue Fin from FENN) or anything that resembles it ?
Perhaps it wouldn't work, but that exactly my point: has anyone ever proved that it wouldn't work ?
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

juandoe

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2014, 04:10:33 AM »

SUP is very new to me (I have only paddled for 2 months), but the water isn't something I am new to.
More specifically, I feel that SUP is also a very new sport as far as its development is concerned. Took surfskis over 20 years to level out, meanwhile, SUP has been further developing only during the last 8 years. My regret right now is that SUP are built by what seems to be: surf shapers, or windsurf shapers. It would be most interesting to see them develop with molds (like surfskis, therefore hollow and re-enforced under foot sections).

Simply put, has any one ever successfully paddled a modified surfski (like the Blue Fin from FENN) or anything that resembles it ?
Perhaps it wouldn't work, but that exactly my point: has anyone ever proved that it wouldn't work ?

Huki made an attempt but it did not seem to make much impact:
http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP


photofr

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 07:24:58 AM »
Thanks for sharing !
HUKI is unreal - I also found this SUP that would be closer to what I was looking for.
In fact, it has a lot of the aspects, and based on where the waterline is with my weight, it may actually work AS IS.

The only thing I wouldn't mind is even MORE ROUNDED, but I can see where HUKI is totally on-board.

I really like HUKI's products - and now there SUP (which I didn't even know about) is making my head spin. That just makes my day.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

55NSup

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 09:04:35 AM »
I'm just an armature designer and builder, but studied yacht design early in my career. Ive built one SUP. 

In totally flatwater you can optimize the waterline entry and volumes ( prismatic co-efficient).  Theres no need to compensate for waves, board tilt, or even much load shift. A knifey,  cutting bow, with flat/ rounded sections that have enough initial stability.
Your tail should be a pin. Theres no need for stability when stepping back or any planing surface because your not racing round bouys or downwinding.

Depending on your weight, you should go 15-17 feet. Design the board to fit your weight.

I did that with the prismatics, but made wide tail so I could step back and not a cutting bow, so board would work in chop. I can say I should have compromised and had more nose volume below wl and on deck, because it peirces right thru any chop or waves, getting a lot of water over deck.

If you have the money just buy a good 14 ft flatwater raceboard that is close to what you want. Fanatic 2013 had a 14x25 that woks good.
Heres a photo of my board next to Fanatic

55NSup

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 09:07:57 AM »
In flat water my board is 20 sec faster per km than that Fanatic. We switched off and Paddled hard. Same result.
Its 16-5 x26

juandoe

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 10:16:04 AM »
http://www.supracer.com/jim-terrells-sprint-sup-racing-secrets/

some other flatwater attempts.

I would suggest picking up a used Starboard K15.  Rounded, pintail.  Tons of glide.  Should be some used ones in your neighborhood.

photofr

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Re: Testing SUP on Flat Water
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2014, 01:25:42 AM »
Nice board 55N - The nose concept is excellent (very narrow nose, which enables better efficiency for people with narrower hips).
In theory, the nose should be narrow - or at least narrow makes sense to me.
The width / stability can also be achieved by increasing the width 10 inches behind the stance.
The tail should (at least) attempt to "close it all back" - therefore narrow.
A wide tail is fine if your pursuing buoy turns, but not for what I have in mind for flat water gliding.

Juandoe's video shows a really nice recessed deck.

Can they all get together to produce "my dream" board ? ahahaha
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

 


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