Author Topic: Is There Such a Thing As A Good Combo Downwind/Flat Water Racing Board?  (Read 19270 times)

yugi

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I think a confusion is sometimes created by the tendency of eg. Hawaiians to use the term "flat water" to describe non-downwind conditions. They are mainly ocean paddlers so don't really have what Europeans for instance would think of as flat water. And to a certain extent there is also the tendency of true flat water paddlers (eg smaller lakes and rivers) to not distinguish between downwinding in the sea and inland downwinding. In some ways it would be better perhaps to talk about ocean vs. inland boards. Most areas of sea can regularly get conditions that render pure flatwater boards almost unuseable. But most inland downwind conditions can be tackled on a flat water board if you are experienced enough, and a ocean board can feel sluggish.

In short, I think the activity (ie. downwind vs. flat water) usually matters less than the location (ocean, inland).

I understand and agree with what you're trying to get at, but the generalization is wrong. It's more like windy/wavey places and flat places. There is a phenomenal amount of ocean shoreline which is regularly glass and a huge amount of inland spots with regular thermal strong winds and monster bumps.

For example. Lake Garda could be SUP downwind nirvana. Get this: it honks 30 knots one way down the narrow lake one way early morning, then drops and picks up 30 kn the other way starting around noon. Do a dawn patrol DW one way, have a nice brunch and then DW back the other way and spend the rest of the afternoon windsurfing and kiting in crazy conditions. How cool is that?

Anyway. It's nice to see peeps winning flat water races on boards with full planing hull with hard rails that behave in DW conditions. And like I said, some sweet DW boards are getting acceptably fast on glass and excel in chop.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 05:06:42 AM by yugi »

stoneaxe

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I don't think it exists either. Design requirements for optimization for racing flatwater kill a board for DW and vice versa. You can certainly get closer to an all-around board for DW and flatwater racing than you can for SUS and racing but if you're serious about either DW or racing then the compromises would be too much. That said I've raced my DW board frequently, but I'm not serious about racing.

Bob

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supLaz

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Hey Yugi,
have you already done DW runs on the Lago, btw Torbole and Malcesine or vice versa?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 07:41:10 AM by supLaz »
Laz

kayadogg

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I agree.  Great video of Josh Ricco in the Pailolo with breaking waves mid channel in April.  I mean waves that many would consider reasonable size for SUS.  I've shared it on my FB page but it's not a vimeo or you tube.  How can I bring it over here?

headmount, is this the video you are talking about?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152416762044518&set=vb.263798299517&type=2&theater


corrego

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Would the starboard allstar fit into this category?

Here in Chile we do not get many options in boards, but we do get many water options.
Currently i use a bic ace tec wing in flatwater and ocen here in Chile

headmount

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I agree.  Great video of Josh Ricco in the Pailolo with breaking waves mid channel in April.  I mean waves that many would consider reasonable size for SUS.  I've shared it on my FB page but it's not a vimeo or you tube.  How can I bring it over here?

headmount, is this the video you are talking about?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152416762044518&set=vb.263798299517&type=2&theater

Kayadog, Yes that's the vid but one part with an overhead wave breaking behind him is missing.  Though I think this clip you linked to clearly shows what the difference is as Area 10 pointed out between ocean paddling and anything else.

covesurfer

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I wish there truly was a do-it-all flat/downwind board design but I don't think so. In my opinion, the paddlers that can make a flatwater board work in open ocean downwind conditions are doing it despite the boards, not because of them. They overcome the instability and tendency to punch into waves and are able to use the boards' design characteristics to their advantage. But they do that only as a result of being highly skilled and able to stand on those boards when the rest of us regular mortals would be mostly swimming.

Last summer in the Gorge, a number of the best racers, mostly young kids under 20, but a few older guys as well, started to use race boards instead of downwind boards for the 9 mile Viento run. People figured out how to make them work and found out that they would actually surf pretty well and potentially link bumps better than dedicated downwind boards.

That was because they accelerated better and in a lot of cases, had a pretty good weight advantage over the d/w boards. You could often climb the back of a swell, punch through with your displacement-canoe-style-nose and catch the downhill on the other side if you were on a race board. That just wasn't going to happen on a downwind board. Remember, if you're racing for 8 or 9 miles and you get only a few seconds of advantage per mile, by the end, you can build a significant gap. A couple more glides per mile can really make a really big difference, even if you fall once or twice and sacrifice a little time with a get-off.

Conditions in the Gorge are unique. I've tried to make the Javelin work in the ocean in Maui, on light or what they call 'flat' (hahaha) days here, and like PB mentioned above, I finish pretty waterlogged. I'd maybe consider trying the Javelin on a normal or even lighter downwind day here but I'd expect it to be a handful. In anything like a channel or even a good Maliko day, forget about it!

Josh, the guy in HM's video, is one of the few guys that can make a flatwater board work pretty well in the conditions that are more typical in the open ocean. But he is off the chart on the skill level. He's young and he is really, really good. I think he's one of the top paddlers around. He told me he's going to the Gorge race in August and I'm thinking he's going to kill it there. I got to watch him for about 3 minutes at the top of the Maliko run on his racy 14' before he was gone. Pretty amazing paddler!

True open ocean downwind conditions are unique and require specific design characteristics in boards that are truly made to take advantage of those conditions. Dedicated downwind boards provide the paddler/rider with the right combination of surfability, stability, directional control and speed to make downwinding an amazingly fun experience.



PonoBill

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Wait, I can fix this: NO.

The answer is NO.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

covesurfer

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Wait, I can fix this: NO.

The answer is NO.



Sheesh. You mean I went to all that trouble to learn to ride the Javelin downwind, then write all that ^^^^^ shiessss down and it's that simple?! No? Why didn't you say so earlier?

I dunno, PB, we're all gonna drown anyway. At least the men are gonna drown. You're grumpy since you had your arm in a sling.

Luc Benac

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Isn't that what the SIC Bullet V2 is intent on doing?
Provide excellent performance on various ocean like conditions by tweaking the design of the original SIC Bullet.
"By moving the nose rocker forward the “entry” shifted forward as well; this keeps the board from “pushing” water at low speed and in calm water. The outline’s wide point has been shifted forward. This gives a rider enough balance to power up and catch bumps. "
Or is that the $2,799 question?
Not that I have the means to check this out anyway.

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JF808

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Isn't that what the SIC Bullet V2 is intent on doing?
Provide excellent performance on various ocean like conditions by tweaking the design of the original SIC Bullet.
"By moving the nose rocker forward the “entry” shifted forward as well; this keeps the board from “pushing” water at low speed and in calm water. The outline’s wide point has been shifted forward. This gives a rider enough balance to power up and catch bumps. "
Or is that the $2,799 question?
Not that I have the means to check this out anyway.

I really wouln't agree with that. I'm assuming your asking about the 14' V2.  The bullet is downwind board, 90% of SIC's line up is geared for downwind. Even with the reduced rocker, it's not meant to rip in flat water.

JF808

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Is there a board that can do both... I honestly dont think so, well not a board that any average person can just jump on and rip downwind, and flatwater in the same day.

Put Kai, Conner, or any other Elite guy on a board and they'll make it work. Or like the video that was mentioned, it's really paddler skill that can make it seem like the board works for anything. But for the normals... I dotn think so. I'm sure there are a few boards that come close. And the only one that I can personally think of are Naish Jav LE's. They're obviously fast in the flat water, and in Hawaii there are lots of guys ripping downwinders on these boards.

the better paddler is able to make his/her board work in any type of conditions, although having the right board does make life a little easier.

It sucks having to own multiple boards for different conditions... better to move to Hawaii and just do downwinders  :P

yugi

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^^^ True. The elite racers on narrow boards are going to DW their boards in any case just so that they are truly at ease on them in all conditions, while a mere mortal's wide downwind board will be inherently slower for flatwater. I think it's the width which will remain the essence while the shapes begin to converge.

I think it's cool that the designs of race boards are appearing with planing hulls that'll behave downwind. DWers on displacement shapes can be done but that shape wants to just plow straight, or worse reverse steer, whereas a planing hull with rocker is a million times more fun.. and predictable. We also see flat water race boards now with the nose out of the water (sprinkler effect) and a bit of tail rocker.

A pure DW board will always have more rocker but those too are tending to flatter for longer planing even if slightly more technical. A few of this forum's most prolific posting downwind aficionados (a couple of the Maliko gang, the SA naish guys, DJ in Aus) are moving to these boards I see.

So as the shapes are tending towards one another the real 2 "genres" are narrow for race and wider for riding the gnarl (or floating the gnarly rider). There is a way to close that gender gap though: get better at it!  That's exactly what I'm working on. I'm fine on a 27" but happy with my 28" wide as a tame learning platform. I do see a 26" wide board quiver-of-one DW board that goes well in flat water and chop in my future.

Our local elite racer comes on downwinders on his (own) custom 12'6 x 24" (and flys). As he's a shaper I was offering him to try some of the different shapes in our downwind quiver. He finally admitted that he really wasn't comfortable paddling on something wide. I've heard that before from guys that have progressed to narrower boards so I want to try it.

As mentioned earlier I'm excited to hear Casper Steinfath is saying he prefers the 26" 2015 Naish Javelin for racing, and he's no heavyweight. That's news! I think maybe these guys are now planing their race boards. They sure are in the sprints. 26" may be looking like a happy medium. I know I could do it and if racers on the world circuit are doing it then the gap is closed.

Pure downwind boards are already good enough [fun] on flatwater. Case in point: I'm in Switzerland on a lake and we're a growing group on downwind 14's as a SUP quiver-of-one. Might seem crazy to have DW boards inland but a good day of virgin powder skiing in the morning followed by a downwinder in the afternoon is double fun (I got a bunch of those this spring). OK, we're not racing... well... I should say that differently: we are not doing "the races", instead we now race each other every time we got a downwinder going. So in the end we actually are racing more! It's been said downwinds are the best practice and that is so true. A sleek 14' DW board is really good enough to cruise around with on flats with guys on 12'6 race boards, we just get to work a bit harder. The lake gets choppy often enough anyway to make the trade-off worth it and there are plenty of big passenger ships throwing up a wake good enough to glide with a 14' DW board whereas a 12'6 flat water race isn't a great shape to pick these up.

So I think the answer to the OP's question is: boards are coming that you can do both, but it's still a choice of either up-your-game if you want to race (narrow), or pick the more comfortable wide one for easier downwinds at the cost of some flatwater speed.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 04:50:08 AM by yugi »

Luc Benac

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Yugi, your answer makes total sense to me. At some point I am hoping to have the money to replace my SB Touring 14x30 with a Jimmy Lewis M-14 (2014) or a Bullet 14 V2 - 14x27.5.
It would still be plenty of board for me and should be great on anything but really flat water which I very rarely paddle.

Cheers,

Luc
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Chilly

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Keep in mind that it’s not just flat water performance. The two boards you mentioned do okay in flat water, really good downwind and side chop. It’s up wind that they do really bad.
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