how deep to paddle

[alap]

I was on a glass yesterday. complete mirror, not a puff. (and this is a mountain lake in the rockies, so you see mountain reflections; plus the water is green and clean - you see rocks on the bottom, and its at least 10 feet deep). great condition to experiment. so I tried different things. the question/observation I have is: how deep should be blade be submerged?

should it be that the blade is just submerged same depth for duration of the stroke - meaning that the point that connects shaft and blade is just on the surface of the water at all times during the stroke?

or is it better to start the stroke this way (connection point on the water surface) and as you stroke move the blade deeper? so when your blade is by your feet and you should finish the stroke this connection point is few inches below the water.

from what I saw yesterday I have a feeling that it goes faster and accelerates more with a deep stroke.
I was paddling standing as much forward as I could, so the nose of the board was creating a wake, a wave (1/2 inch high wave) not only to the sides but pushing water forwards (its glass and the nose was just on the surface). And if it is faster board speed, this "wave" should be bigger, right? With deep stroke it was indeed bigger

Also to make a deep stroke I had to bend knees and then straighten up, which kinda involves more muscles - more muscles working, faster it goes.

I am talking very small marginals differences - but every drop counts (no pun intended).

Also when I move the blade shallow I can see two swirls of water on either side of the blade. When I submerge it, there are no swirls on the surface (i would say less energy dissipating into swirls).

[shapeshifter]

the vortexes visible while the paddle is at half depth are present, though less visible, when it is fully submerged. generally paddles should be fully submerged, otherwise air is easily introduced causing ventilation which means a less efficient stroke. i suspect the problem of ventilating the water when the paddle is not fully submerged is different for paddles of different blade shapes and it's my belief that paddles which lack dihedral should be fully submerged for that reason (correct me if i'm wrong).

[stoneaxe]

Interesting video with Todd Bradley explaining paddle dynamics.
http://www.standuppaddlesurf.net/2007/09/23/the-stand-up-paddle-explained-in-detail-by-todd-bradley-from-c4-waterman-part-2/

[linter]

after looking at some of the paddle vids, i decided i wasn't digging deep enuf so i went out in flat water today and dug deeper and by golly it makes a whole bunch of difference.  much more faster!
   i also noticed -- as maybe it was bradley who pointed it out -- that with the blade in deeper, I could bring the paddle shaft closer to the board, thus the blade was more under the board, thus the board tracked straighter (if you catch my drift).
   now the issue is not  the blade hitting the side of the board and taking out bits and pieces but the shaft, as i drag it down the rail.  anyone here taping their shaft w/ mastic tape or similar?  i'm thinking it might be better just to mastic tape the rails.  thoughts, anyone?

[MichaelF]

after watching the Todd B video I realized that on the left I am going shallower than on the right, hence more turn to right Vs. when paddling on the right I keep fairly straight.

Good point on depth on the drive.  Couldn't figure it out for the last two months but it was a much deeper drive on the right and shallower on the left that was causing the imbalance.

[jayr]

after looking at some of the paddle vids, i decided i wasn't digging deep enuf so i went out in flat water today and dug deeper and by golly it makes a whole bunch of difference.  much more faster!
   i also noticed -- as maybe it was bradley who pointed it out -- that with the blade in deeper, I could bring the paddle shaft closer to the board, thus the blade was more under the board, thus the board tracked straighter (if you catch my drift).
   now the issue is not  the blade hitting the side of the board and taking out bits and pieces but the shaft, as i drag it down the rail.  anyone here taping their shaft w/ mastic tape or similar?  i'm thinking it might be better just to mastic tape the rails.  thoughts, anyone?

Linter, found this blog.  It's the same site in stoneaxe's post.  Hope this can help... http://www.standuppaddlesurf.net/2007/09/27/save-your-rails-on-your-stand-up-paddle-surfboard/

[PonoBill]

I probably should have mentioned this long ago, but I always run a layer of duct tape on the rails of my boards from the nose to just past the center. Keeps the paddle dings down to a minimum and doesn't seem to have any effect on the board.

[river]

I bet that most of you will not be experiencing board dings as your technique develops and thus you will be benefitting from lighter boards and better performance from your paddle.  Personally I cant stand the edge guards people are using on their paddles (because it totally f's up the release of the paddle)and I have not had any problems with edge dings in the 2 yrs I have been paddling with 5-6 different boards.  Of course the board durability could be an issue with dings if its sub-par IMHO.

[Nate Burgoyne]

I think you might be on to something there River. I was chatting with Dave Chun..Kialoa Paddles...about the same thing the other day and in his opinion most of the rail dings come from lack of stroke repetition by stand up paddlers. He was saying that most guys jump into the surf without putting in the flat water repetitions to develop the muscle memory for a good clean stroke. I think he's right. 

About stroke depth, Dave mentioned that ideally you want to sink the paddle so it's stationary like a pole cemented in the ground, then you pull yourself past it. He said that the paddle isn't used for propulsion like swim fins. That opened my mind because I always thought of the paddle as a tool for propulsion. Boy, once again, the more I learn the less I know. I recorded our conversation, with his permission of course, and the transcription is getting released in, I think 4 parts on our site.

[river]

Great reading loved the article and yes Dave Chun knows what he is talking about.  I have noticed something else too lately.  I dont hit the edge of my board with my BLADE usually if I do hit the edge of my board it usually with the shaft.  SO I am thinking that many of the rail ding's peeps and getting is because peeps are not getting the blade all the way the water!  From what I learned (in 25 yrs of whitewater paddling with coaches) is that you dont appy pressuse until the blade is completely submerged, there should be NO splash when you plant your paddle, you should plant as far forward as you can, you shoul dwind up you body and twist with your torso while also pulling with lower hand and punching with upper hand (or driving down on the handle with an SUP or Outrigger paddle), never ever let the blade pass your waist (or your ankle for SUP), and getting the paddle back into the water as fast as possible because as soon as you pull it out everything slows.  I have noticed that short super quick strokes are working much better for acceleration and catching waves than long drwn out power strokes plus it seems to be more stable.  OK gotta run all this talking about has me jonesing to get out there.  I am on it.
Forever stoked
River

[WindJunkie]

I actually joined an outrigger team for a season to improve my stand up paddling.  I learned a lot about paddling techniqe.  I ended up buying a one man canoe to continue my training.  I got more out of a month of one man paddling than 6 months of 6 man.  The technique in oc-1 is slightly different than oc-6 and very similar to stand up. 

I have to agree that a lot of stand up paddlers don't have the insane repetition of other paddling sports.  There have been a many good tips here so I just wanted to add a couple of things I learned.  The top hand should be over the rail during the power stroke.  If you're paddling on your right, your left hand should be over right rail.  This gets your shaft straight up and down.  I learned how important it is to drive down the top hand during power stroke.  Seems equally important as pulling back.

Another thing I learned is how to save my shoulder.  I got injured in the last month of outrigger season so it forced me to concentrate on my technique.  A lot of shoulder injury comes from over rotating the top shoulder.  I see it very common to windmill the top shoulder.  On the power stroke, your top arm should be bent with elbow low.  On recovery, your top hand should form a D.  Once you're done with power, both elbows should go fairly straight but relaxed.  Your top hand should then start moving towards your forehead.  The last part of the movement is all forearm.  If done properly, there should be very little movement in the upper arm and it's all up and down.

Ironically, even though my paddling has taken off, my surfing skills and balance have suffered.  OC paddling has been so time consuming, I had just about completely neglected my other skills.

[DavidJohn]

Interesting stuff WindJunkie...Thanks for your post.

I might get someone to film my technique...post it and see what you think.

DJ

[Nate Burgoyne]

That would be great. A video can say a lot. Post it good brother. Along those lines, River is on Maui right now. When he returns to Oahu about the 27th, we're also going to do a  brief video where he explains paddling technique. He has a long history of paddling and is going to show us how it's done. I can't wait. I think for most of us, myself included, when we got out first board and paddle it was handed to us, and we just went to it figuring it out as best we could on our own. For me it's really a treat to get some technical insights. Post the video DavidJohn. That'd be great. I'll also let you know when we get River's done. Aloha.

[wadadli_waterman]

Very helpful info....WindJunkie!

Man.....as soon as is kept my upper arm elbow low I found like 30% more power and it "feels right".  Much more comfortable.

Keeping the uper hand outboard to maintain the paddle in a more vertical position through the stroke helped hugely as well.

Thanks maing.  Thanks all!

[river]

As we say in kayaking a high angle stroke (shaft more vertical or even past vertical) gets the blade closer to the center line of the board (from tip to tail) and causes less rotation of the board.  I have found that using this technique I can paddle as long as I want on either the right or left side and never have to switch.  A more "low angle" stroke is an effective truning stroke but not a very effective straight line stroke.  I do what we call a "sweep stroke" placing the blade at the tip of the board and swinging it as far away form the board as possible to make my turn.  Even a "stern draw stroke" can be efective for turning to catch a wave.  This is a stroke where you place the blade out to the side far away from the edge of the board and then bring in a lateral motion towards the stern of the board.  Ok haha just some basic stuff from my 20yrs of studying and trying to perfect my kayaking strokes.  Cheers my friends.  Looks like I will be getting out on the wter today again.
STOKED-Aloha