Which to bend more while paddling: Knees or Back..?

[Wetstuff]

I see a lot of people paddle (like the guy in the Naish ad above this posting) deep bending at the waist. Looking at a protractor, some seem to be as far as 40deg off the deck.  ..others seem to be more like 60deg, but their knees are bend more. 

I do a hour's flat water, just to get out, but I more care about paddling in the surf.  Is there a optimal surf posture?

Jim

[Weeble]

Between my local paddle coach, and two free seminars that I attended by Dave Kalama and another by Jim Terrell (yep, both...for flippin' free!)...all three preached using the large muscle groups of of the hips and lats to twist and rotate the torso while keeping the arms as straight as possible, and the hinging at the waist at the same time to use the body weight to drive the paddle down....hope I explained that right...it's so hard to explain multiple, simultaneous movements!  It took some time to toughen up my lower back muscles, but it has never hurt has far as real injury goes.  My lower back would get tired, and the muscles would burn and ache a bit, but as soon as I finished my paddle and did a little stretching, my lower back has never hurt afterwards.  My knees are always bent a little, but I rarely bend them to add anything to my stroke.  In fact, if I do, then my quads really start to burn.  The only time I exaggerate the bending of my knees with when it's rough or sloppy/ choppy and I need to lower my center of gravity since I'm tall.

I rarely surf, but when I do, my knees are bent more than when I am race paddling or touring, but again, mainly for my balance.  For power and speed when I'm trying to catch a wave or little bump, I just use shorter strokes with as fast as a cadence as I can do it.

I bet PonoBill could explain the physics of the stroke with bent knees and or hinging of the waist WAY better than I could...and will probably disprove everything that I just wrote above!  But, I love it when he kicks some science into our coconut heads

[surfcowboy]

I hope you mean "waist" for your sake.

[AirJunky]

Kalama has several good teaching videos on Youtube. Well worth checking out. He talks about the power coming from bending at the waist to reach way forward & really pulling the paddle back with your upper body.
The bent knees are more for absorbing the bumps to maintain your balance.

[Wetstuff]

Weeble,  You explained it perfectly, for me... I need to 'image' words, as my processor is a little odd.   

Thanks Junky.. I will look at them again.  I assumed there may have a difference between racers and surfers, so looked at them perhaps more casually than I should have. 

Aside from grinding to get outside .. it sounds like; "Chop - Chop!" to make the drop. 

Thanks all.

Jim

[Wetstuff]

3hrs later .. I now get a better 'bite' leaning like I've just been introduced to the Queen. I also need to move my 'rail saver' forward.  ..and stop the paddle at my feet - rather than the fins.

I got a pretty good handle on doing that 'baton twirler' move about switching sides.

...but, I'm still trying to grasp that business where one of our Betters says; "Treat the paddle like a fixed pole and pull the board past it."   How'zat?!  ..like a butt push? Hmmmm?!

Jim

[Chilly]

For me the best way to visualize it is to imagine being on a skateboard and using a pole like a paddle to anchor it on the ground and then pull pass it, but not with your arms. Use your core to move pass the pole. If you have a good catch, your blade doesn’t move, just like the pole doesn’t move when you anchor it in the ground.

[hbsteve]

Another way to look at it is:  Pull the lower hand from the back, not the elbow.

[UKRiverSurfers]

I havnt fully read this thread but imo putting all the strain through your lumber is asking for trouble.. You're standing after all not sitting in a canoe. The beauty of SUP is being able to use your whole body throughout the stroke phases.

If you do not use your knees/legs to power through the stroke, you can get numb feet and possible pooling of blood in your lower legs. The strain on your lumber will be massive and will almost certainly result in an injury, eventually.

Most of the power comes from 'trunk rotation' and from punching your top hand away from roughly your forehead. When you come to the power phase of the stroke your paddle shaft should be vertical on one side of the board with your top  hand directly above your lower hand, this is known as 'stacked hands'.... I keep both arms totally straight with a relatively loose grip. Keeping both arms straight gives you a triangle made up of both arms and shaft and it is this triangle that enables the power from the big muscles to deliver though the paddle... The triangle is after all, the strongest structure in the Universe

[Area 10]

I agree with UKRiverSurfers.

Unless you are a superfit young elite athlete, then trying to emulate, straight off, the strokes of those who are (like Connor Baxter) could well put you in hospital. I think the best role models are generally those who are still managing to compete at the highest level despite not being in the full flush of youth. They have found a way to be super fast but still protect their bodies, and take a long-term view of their health.

Some bending at the waist does usually go on. And this can be quite marked. But you have to do it the right way. So, in my view (as someone who is trying to use a stroke that protects my back) when you bend at the catch so as to transfer your weight onto the paddle, this is not done in a sense of your torso "falling forward" so much as it is that you are pushing down on the paddle, and the paddle sinks into the water with your torso supported by it as you bend at the waist. It's hard to explain the difference, but I'll give it a go: Try to imagine standing on land on very soft ground. You have your paddle in your hand, and you are trying to drive the paddle right down into the ground. The best way to do this is to transfer your weight onto the paddle by pushing down on the handle. As the paddle sinks into the ground, the feeling will be that your spine is actually slightly elongated because you are taking the weight off your feet and onto the paddle handle, like would happen if you were doing a pull-up onto a bar with your legs dangling free. In other words, you are bending at the waist, but your back is supported by the paddle. In contrast, if you just "fall forward" from the waist in order to reach far forward with your blade, and then start pulling the paddle towards you when you have sunk it whilst at the point of full stretch, in my own experience this can be pretty painful.

Anyway, videos are much better than words for this kinda stuff, and static pictures can be misleading because you are only seeing a fraction of the overall movement. So here's a video that I very much like. Larry Cain does some things slightly differently from some of the other top guys (they all have their own slightly different emphases), but the thing I have found especially useful out of this is to watch (a) how his knees bend, (b) how straight he keeps his back, and (c) how supported his back is by the paddle while he is bending at the waist. As the stroke finishes, he is not having to lift his torso up so much as it is pushed up as a natural part of the stroke finishing. He explains it all far better than I ever could on his website - and needless to say, is a far better paddler than I will ever be.

[UKRiverSurfers]

A really good video! You can clearly see his 'stacked hands' and 'trunk rotation' as his hip moves back to add power. Also the triangle that I described with hardly any bend in his arms at all. He doesn't seem to be punching away from his forehead with his top hand much, but who cares, he's flying along  

This is a good vid... A bit long winded but some good info -

[headmount]

I really enjoyed the light hitting the board in the vid.  Liked the knee bend but his stroke extended at least a foot behind his feet.  From everything I've heard the feet should be the retrieve point.  Going downwind it's very easy for the blade to get sucked back beyond the feet because of the board speed but in flat water, shouldn't you end at the feet?  He also really drops his arm for the retrieve.  This works but isn't it extra work?   Isn't drawing your sword more efficient?

But I guess this thread is specifically about knees and back.  Sorry

[UKRiverSurfers]

That's a point I was gonna bring up. He does power way past his feet. He has a fairly 'low cadence' stroke... The degree of bend in a paddle can make the difference. The more bend, the more you can get away with a longer, lower cadence stroke.

In reality, the exit phase of the stroke will always go a bit past your feet, even if you ease off the power at exactly your feet. To exit at your feet would mean a power phase that is too short in my opinion, unless a really high cadence stroke in short distance sprint race, or similar situation takes place.

It's hard to talk about just knees and waist when looking at stroke, as it is after all the whole picture.

If you just bend at the waist and do not use your knees at all then you will end up 'lifting water' with the paddle blade at the end of the power phase and exit, which will make the craft bob up and down, slowing the whole thing.

[UKRiverSurfers]

Please explain in a bit more depth, his dropping arm on the recovery..

I'm thinking more trunk rotation will correct this.

[headmount]

What I think I saw was that he dropped his arm to the side to exit the blade out of the water rather than lift it straight up to exit.  I try to keep my top hand in front of my face going in an oval in front of my eyes and like others have said, lift with the bottom hand.  When I get tired and sloppy I drop my hand to the side to retrieve .. gravity takes its toll.