Author Topic: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me  (Read 12576 times)

pdxmike

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »
One of the best things about having good gear (i.e. same stuff as the faster people are using) is that then you don't have to guess whether it's 1% or 5% or 25%.  Then you have an objective comparison between you and them, and no uncertainty.  Of course it does eliminate any excuses.

 

supthecreek

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 11:33:55 AM »
Axeman
Good thread...
You got the "wit" flowing again... fun read :D

I think to help his NE Paddle Rep return to his winning ways, your paddle manufacturer might ante up for the new GoFast race board for big(little)Brudda's

Or maybe the new Kryptonite PonoBoard, with adjustable helium weight equalizer valve.

To represent... for the paddle...

soulpaddler

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 11:39:36 AM »
Blame Lard!

I almost had Iced ea coming out of my nose!!!!!!!!!

Chilly

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 12:23:43 PM »
I agree that its less than 5% equipment and 95% the paddler, but a good paddler will see a greater performance improvement with the right gear. For example, I think Danny Ching in a flat water race will see a greater than 5% increase in his overall time with a planning hull when compared to a flatwater race board. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if your paddling skills and fitness are good, than a race board is worth the investment.
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Six Feet and Glassy

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 12:57:09 PM »
This is inspiring!!!

Big and, uh, Tempered (as in hardened by experience) guys rawking a sport that is unarguably suited for smaller guys (as in sub-200).  I'm not too far from senior status, but I'm enjoying one of the few sports where my size (or lack of) is finally a benefit.

Gonna paddle with SEA today.  Been averaging one surf or downwind session every other month for just too damn long.  Can't wait!  Gotta start MAKING the time.    >:( >:( >:(    (my Determined face)

Aloha Everyone and Geev 'um, Stoney!!!

Ken
(Six Feet and Glassy)



Ken

Six Feet and Glassy

Six Feet and Glassy

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 01:08:18 PM »
...and I totally forgot to answer the original question/post:

I'm not sure how much different a board can be (speed-wise) for someone your size if you stay at 14'.   What about unlimited?  Can't imagine hauling and storing one of those beasts, though.  

My philosophy on guitars is applicable here, methinks:  A new axe (hey!) won't directly improve your chops, but it  will very likely make you play More, which will definitely improve your chops.  

And new ones are purrrrrty.   ;D
Ken

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addapost

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 01:41:10 PM »
Bob,
We don't know each other but I think I am putting 2 and 2 and 2 together here and getting 6. If the race you're talking about was the Essex on Saturday then I was the guy 40 seconds  behind you THE ENTIRE WAY! I was on a 14' Bark Dominator and I just could not close the gap. I thought you did a great job. If you look at last years race results you would have won! The studs way in front Saturday are outstanding paddlers. Danger Dave was the guy drafting you so no wonder he was fresh. I tried to catch you at the finish to thank you for being my "rabbit" but you kept going to the museum take out and I waited at the finish for my friend to come in. Anyway, I thought you were strong.
[The only thing I'd say is you shouldn't have let the guy on the homemade woodie gap you :)]

Jim
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:51:40 PM by addapost »
Bunch of old shit

Area 10

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2012, 02:03:14 PM »
Interesting thread.

For “normal guys” (i.e. not those like Ching who can make a board go faster than physics says it should), if you stay with the same length board, then I reckon the difference between a fast planing hull design and a fast displacement hull design will probably be about 3% in dead flat windless conditions. At least that is the speed difference for me between my M14 and my Dominator.

But, if conditions become choppy, and especially if there is a lot of side wind as well, then I am faster on the M14 than the Dominator. This difference can be much more than 3% - to the point where in howling crosswinds I can make no headway at all on the Dom but am still managing progress on the M14. At that point I’m 100% faster on the M14…

So, this is a complex issue. Yes, as a rough guide, I think the estimates being suggested here of between 1 and 5% difference in flat water are about right – and in fact I’d put my money on the typical value being somewhere in the middle of that range. But this will probably only hold if you race in dead flat water.

I think this discussion is also right about the speed not just being length of hull shape either. It is about finding a board that suits you. I’ve found this extremely hard to predict – boards I thought I’d be fast on I’ve found I’m not, and on other ones I feel like I’m slow but comfortable, and the GPS tells me I’m going fast (for me).

A case in point is the Naish 17. There is something about that board that seems to suit me in flatwater, and I’m faster on it than on any dedicated flatwater race board I’ve been on, including the most common unlimited flat water board around here, the K15. OK, so the Naish 17 is 17 ft, right? But it is a good deal heavier than most flat water race boards, it’s a downwind planing hull design with the first 2ft at least of the nose out of the water when I’m on it, and a lot of has sharp rail area in the back half. Plus, I’m not some monster powerful paddler who can shift a behemoth with sheer willpower. All these things should make it slow in flat water. But, for me, it isn’t. It’s some kinda ergonomics thing perhaps – the interaction between my paddle style, physique, and that particular design. Perhaps even the difference in effective paddle length when I transfer from a board that has you standing 6” above the water as opposed to say 2” or so.

Contrast this with a friend of mine of similar size, fitness, and build to me. He is MUCH faster on a K15 in pure flat water than on anything else he has tried, including the Naish 17. There is something about the K15 that really suits him (or his paddle length, or some other factor I haven’t thought of yet).

So, I just don’t know. You just have to try as many boards as you can, in as many conditions as you can, and use some objective measure (like GPS, or a set course you know well), not rely on your impressions alone.

Oh yes, and then there’s the type of race you are taking part in, and the length of it, and…and…and...

So, one thing is for sure, given that conditions in races vary, and races vary so much from one to another in format, the only way I reckon you can be SURE that you will be faster, is if you become a better paddler. The equipment choice is more of a gamble, unless you always race in the same conditions and the same course.

But you all know this for yourselves already. You, like me, are probably just hoping that there is a simple solution. I wish.

PonoBill

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2012, 02:48:05 PM »
There's always an interaction between your size, weight, strength, technique and the board. That's why I wound up with a Bark even though I don't like the looks of them. For me it was the fastest flatwater board of the ones I tested. I doubt very much that it's faster for everyone, in fact I sorta know it isn't. I was watching TJ on the Bark and then the M&M when I was testing boards and he was visibly faster on the M&M. Not very scientific, but it was pretty obvious from the first stroke.

The board to board difference can be a lot more than 5%. I had a hard time holding 5 mph on some of the boards, but reached and held 5.9 on the bark, in fact I saw 6. That's 20 percent. Would I see that in a race? Maybe not, but I was pretty pleased with my speed (if not my finishing position) at the Ross Island race. Most times my Motion-X was telling me I was over six. Probably lying, but I liked it. Cyril's GPS said the race was 7.6 miles and I did it in 1:32 so that's 5 MPH average. Not bad at all. Any effect of current was cancelled by going around the island twice and reversing course.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Area 10

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 03:02:24 PM »
PB - what is it about the Bark, do you think, that makes it so fast for you?

Is this a stock model?

BTW, why on earth doesn't Joe Bark extend the footpads a little further forward? I'm sick of having to jam my toes up the end in some conditions, and it really compromises the board downwind in the kinds of conditions we get here - you just can't always get forward enough to point the nose down - or at least, at my weight/size, I can't.

PonoBill

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 03:05:17 PM »
I think it just trims out properly--there's enough volume in the tail to stay up with my 245 pounds on it. I do have to put my toes past the end of the mat in the "full jam" position". Other than that I have no idea why it's faster for me. The bottom shape and bow look downright primitive. And it sucks toads in chop and downwind swells.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2012, 03:16:56 PM »
I learned in the Ross Island race that a gps will work best if you remember to turn it on at the start, and not 5 minutes later.

For me, anyway, currents don't cancel out even if you go equal amounts up and downstream.  I believe you lose more speed going upstream than you gain going down.  I've timed myself around Ross Island dozens of times over the last 2 years, and my best times are all in the fall, when the current is running slowest.  So if your gps says 3 mph upstream and 7 mph downstream, I don't think it means you'd be doing 5 mph with no current--it'd be something faster.  So if true that makes those fast times Saturday even more impressive.  

I think something similar happens with boards--in good conditions the best board may be slightly faster than another board, but in bad ones the best one will be significantly faster--just like Area 10 said.  Try a 14' Dominator vs. a 14' old-style Glide in flatwater--Glide is a few percent slower.  Then try both into a strong headwind--Dominator will slice through it, but Glide will be like paddling a wall into the wind, and you'll have to to start switching sides every stroke, and you may be 100% slower--again like Area 10 said.  

starman

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2012, 04:27:21 PM »
Maybe it's just me but it seems Bark boards tend to be under appreciated in the "zone". Of all the fancy race boards on the market it seems the Bark boards show up the most when looking at results. I think it's fair to say they show up on the podium more then any other brand. Just my observation, not sure what it means. (I'm ignoring Hawaii as it's very specialized over there)

stoneaxe

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 06:32:27 PM »
Thanks for the kind words both Matt and Jim. I didn't see much of Matt after the start. That M&M definitely suits you. Was that you on the green Lahui Kai Jim? I was chasing you until you went down. What happened? fin catch on the edge? I almost went down when I cut it too close a couple times. I was glad the woman on the paddleboard stopped to make sure you were OK...I slowed down to check but when I saw you climbing back up I figured it was my chance....(we need an evil grin emoticon)... ;D

The guy on the homemade woodie is a friend. Ryan Flynn, he's done the CCBC since 2009 on it and is a fast paddler. The woodie is a surprisingly fast board too.

I was very stoked for Will Brown, 3rd place in his 1st race. I would have finished 10th if Mike hadn't decided the swell was too nice to pass up. He's a  fast geezer for sure.

We're seeing some good competition that's for sure. Look at the times for 1st and 2nd...2 secs...doesn't get much closer after 5.5 miles.
Will Rich is one of the guys that paddled the east coast last summer and Rod McLain was an Olympic canoeist at his 1st SUP race. Kind of interesting, I was sizing up the competition just before the start. I figured Will Rich would be out in front, and I knew Will Brown is fast, Geoff is built like a wall and looked tough just standing there. Rod looked very calm and confident somehow. He didn't look particularly dangerous but I just knew he was going to be fast.

I talked to Geoff after the race..funny guy. Just moved here from Hawaii..part of a OC-6 crew there. I knew Shawn would smoke me as he did in the ROTC. Matt was a surprise...must be the new Ke Nalu/M&M combo... ;D. Bob was the guy that drafted me. I thought he caught Matt but it looks like Matt held him off. Patrick showed up 10 mins late and still almost caught me.


18   William Rich   10:03:40   11:06:12   1:02:32   First
32   Rod McLain   10:03:40   11:06:14   1:02:34   Second
115   Willis Brown   10:03:40   11:12:06   1:08:26   Third
80   Geoff DeAvila   10:03:40   11:12:56   1:09:16   4
81   Shawn MacDonald   10:03:40   11:19:44   1:16:04   5
223   Matt Files   10:03:40   11:21:06   1:17:26   6
35   Bob Arnot   10:03:40   11:21:24   1:17:44   7
243   Ryan Flynn   10:03:40   11:23:12   1:19:32   8
93   Bob Babcock   10:03:40   11:25:24   1:21:44   9
237   Jim Bernard   10:03:40   11:26:05   1:22:25   10
234   Patrick Hull   10:03:40   11:27:36   1:23:56   11
222   Will Graylin   10:03:40   11:27:46   1:24:06   12
231   Dean Wilbur   10:03:40   11:29:26   1:25:46   13
109   Eric Rydbeck   10:03:40   11:30:42   1:27:02   14
41   Jake Dylengoski   10:03:40   11:34:01   1:30:21   15
5   Tyler Knight   10:03:40   11:40:55   1:37:15   16
106   William Hoffman   10:03:40   11:41:36   1:37:56   17
   Michael Brown      DNS      18


Great responses everyone. I know what I need to do. One thing is for sure. I've been a lot of talk and not much action on getting the weight off. This really underlines the need. I'm hoping a summer of racing can provide me enough incentive to really get it done. I will be interesting to see where I am at the end of the season. Does my love of good food and good beer outweigh my interest in going fast and getting in better shape? I hope not.

Geez...synchronicity...my wife is jumping through channels on the tube in the next room. She stops on some show "American Ninja"? She says...OMG...this guy has the same body you had when we got married.... :o
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 06:50:35 PM by stoneaxe »
Bob

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Strand Leper

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Re: Wondering how much is board, how much it's me
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 06:48:17 PM »
Bob,

You were one of the motivations for my weight loss thread back in December, 2010... just saying...

Keep paddling (and eat less carbs).   ;D

Tim
American Saltwater Angler Magazine's Seven Time Angler of the Year.* Founder and former CEO of "Fishstrong" an organization devoted to the fight against fishbait-hands-smell discrimination.

* subject to revocation due to a pending investigation by the FDA (fisherman drug association)

 


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