Author Topic: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs  (Read 30708 times)

NoogaSup

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Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« on: May 07, 2012, 06:51:18 AM »
So, I'm new to the whole SUP thing, but already considering adding another board to the household (currently on a Naish Glide 14').

Looking at a Bote Gonzo SS, and I notice that it has a Goretex vent plug (whereas my Naish has a stainless steel screw).  I like the idea of an "automatic" vent, but I was under the impression that Goretex works, in part, because of body temperature.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's what I've always thought.  In any event, is a Goretex vent plug a viable, reliable, and proven option on a SUP? 

Thanks for any insight...

AJR

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 07:11:02 AM »
I've never had problems with my goretex plug - other than I broke the cap off when I overtightened it (completely my fault).  It was an easy fix with a tiny amount if Superglue and after a year it's still fine.  I always rinse it with freshwater when I get out of the water per the instructions.  My friend has had more issues with his manual plug - operator error also since he left the plug unscrewed.

Bulky

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 09:01:29 AM »
Never had much problem with either.  Have a manual plug in one board and have never touched it.  I live at sea level and would only have to mess with it if I take the board to elevation.

I just put two Goretex vents in my 14ft board this weekend and they seem to be working well.  Weighed the board before and after just to be sure I wasn't getting any leaks.  The casica vents were recommended to me by several people with lots of experience.  They have been out for a long time and I couldn't find much criticism of them anywhere.  I'm assuming if there was a problem, the bboards like this would sound off about it.
Santa Barbara, CA

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King's 14'
Naish Glide 14' (2012)
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mik911

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 09:36:50 PM »
Hey Biker--where'd you get the gore tex vent plugs?  Do they screw into existing vent threads?

After investigating this whole vent plug thing, I'm still confused.
eg, I've got 2 BARK's.  I asked two industry SUP repair specialists (Charlie at Bark, and Josh of StickyFingers--NAISH rep and repair). Both said at sea level, barring any extreme temp changes, to just leave the vent plugs screwed tight. 
My Bark 14' w/ carbon hull--I can literally hear a loud hissss every time I unscrew the vent plug, after only a short time in cool sunny weather.
My Competitor never emits any hissing sound when the vent plug is unscrewed, no matter how hot it is.
So what gives?

Obviously the 14' 'needs' to be vented, whereas the Competitor, maybe not.
btw, my Surftech Bark prone paddleboard also has a screw on vent plug, and it, like the Competitor, never hissses.

Nooga--the gore tex vent plug just acts like a waterproof one-way valve, allowing air to escape out of the board, without allowing water into the board. Has nothing to do with body/temp.
Mike

Ron House Coastal Cruiser 12'6"
Hoe Nalu surf sup  10'6"
BARK 14' custom carbon SUP
Fanatic Fly Race 12'6" carbon SUP
BARK 14' prone custom paddleboard
BARK 12' prone Surftech paddleboard
Longboards: Harbour, Becker, Local Motion
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Ucycle

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 09:58:15 PM »
http://www.foamez.com/casica-retrofit-vent-plug-selfventing-p-780.html
 they also have off brand that is 10 dollar cheaper but i would just get the Goretex since they are rated for 10 yrs(if i remember correctly).
http://www.foamez.com/ez-retrofit-vent-plug-selfventing-p-866.html
Also i dont thing the gore vent will fit normal solid vent plug, you have to get the whole threaded insert with the vent.  takes about 10 min to install the vent, super easy.
it is the sun/inside a hot car that going to change the internal pressure the most.  atmospheric pressure is not a problem here.  Is the Bark 14' board hollow?
"Surfing is not fashion, it is passion... F*CK YOU surf industry!!!!" -SL

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 03:22:39 AM »
We have a bunch of the glass in style...the vent elements are the same as with retrofit style...

These vents are air two way...pressure can equalize without letting H20 in...

I posted this info in the Hobie delam thread...

"The vents I manufacture allow 5 ml/min airflow at optimum pressure/temperature differential, the one you have is similar.  In normal conditions, it never sees this since it constantly is breathing and would require an abrupt change in temperature/pressure to flow at maximum.  In the normal breathing condition, the amount of water vapor that can be held in the air during an intake mode is insigificant.  I don't know what the yield strength of the 2wayv membrane is, but the Gore-Tex I use is rated at ≥ 0.6 bar/60 sec.  It is also tested to withstand IP65 - water jets, IP67 - 1 meter water submersion for 30 minutes, IP69K - high pressure spray.  Keep in mind that this isn't for the membrane, but the entire valve assembly as made by Gore. "

"The Casica design has the membrane bonded around the circumference using a very specialized process. This vent is SELF-VENTING, which means it "breathes" constantly alleviating the need to open and close it. Or in worse case, forgetting to close it! The vent will flow 40 ml/minute max, and SUP's over 10' or hollow boards should use two (mid-board & near tail). Originally, Gore designed this vent for sealed military electronics, so it meets very stringent spec's for a saltwater environment. This vent isn't an immunity to heat problem with EPS, and customers should understand that boards still cannot be left in the sun; especially upside down on roof racks."

MAINTENANCE:
• Do not wax over the vent.  Keep wax, sand, debris away from the recessed area.
• Rinse the vent after use with fresh water using low pressure to remove any salt crystals, sand. etc
from the recessed area.
• Venting the board will greatly reduce problems with EPS/hollow-core heat expansion, but it is not an
immunization.   Keep the board out of direct sun exposure, and use a reflective bag.  Do not keep the
board in a closed vehicle during high temperatures.

Pete also states that the vent element should be replaced every two years if constantly used, or damaged in any way.
Changes in atmospheric pressure without open venting can cause problems with some boards...just ask my shop manager about the Mana he took out to Utah...;-)

I would also be very careful with race boards...all of them...they are not particularly durable...some are constructed with only a single layer of 6oz.
Mahalos...{:~)

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Bulky

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 08:25:41 AM »
Hey Biker--where'd you get the gore tex vent plugs?  Do they screw into existing vent threads?

After investigating this whole vent plug thing, I'm still confused.
eg, I've got 2 BARK's.  I asked two industry SUP repair specialists (Charlie at Bark, and Josh of StickyFingers--NAISH rep and repair). Both said at sea level, barring any extreme temp changes, to just leave the vent plugs screwed tight. 
My Bark 14' w/ carbon hull--I can literally hear a loud hissss every time I unscrew the vent plug, after only a short time in cool sunny weather.
My Competitor never emits any hissing sound when the vent plug is unscrewed, no matter how hot it is.
So what gives?


I don't have much to add to what Wardog and Yiu have put here.   I got mine from Foam-EZ--the retrofit ones, since I had to drill my own holes and epoxy them in.  I don't think there's any product that would allow you to just replace a metal vent screw with a goretex vent-the whole housing is different.  Not sure how easy it would be to swap one out if it's glassed in, but Yiu seems to indicate that it is.

I heard the same thing about not touching the vent plug on my Starboard since I'm always close to sea level in a pretty moderate climate.  Haven't touched it since the day I bought it almost 3 yrs ago. The only time I ever would is if I took the board significantly above sea level.

Not sure why one board would hiss and one not, but I'm not sure that's an indicator that one board "needs" to be vented and another not--just an affirmation of what's happening in the board. I wonder what happens if you were to put it in the garage over night after the same sun exposure--would it still hiss when you opened it?

Not sure I'd spend much time experimenting with this--more fun things to tweak on the board, plus a failed experiment here could be costly.  My biggest goal is prevention which is why I always use a reflective board bag on the car and try to avoid the sun--but I've got it easy here in SB where we have a mild climate year-round and the car would bake in 100 sun.
Santa Barbara, CA

Infinity Blackfish 14'
King's 14'
Naish Glide 14' (2012)
SupSports Hammer 8'11
Starboard WidePoint 10'5
Ke Nalu Mana, Konihi, Maliko

Fishman

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 08:32:39 AM »
Do vacuum constructed boards  (that are sold with No vent plugs) have benefit from installing a vent plug?
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Dwight (DW)

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 08:37:08 AM »

My Bark 14' w/ carbon hull--I can literally hear a loud hissss every time I unscrew the vent plug, after only a short time in cool sunny weather.


The hiss test is your best indicator of how the board is doing. Over the last 30 years of owning EPS boards, I've always checked using the hiss test. I've had boards hiss when new, then stop when older. I've had boards hiss more in Winter than Summer.

Windsurfers (the experts in EPS because they've been doing it 30 years) NEVER sell bare carbon boards. If your Bark has black bare carbon, get a gore-tex vent.

There is a reason Wardog and Starboard do brushed carbon. That white smeared paint look keeps them cool and allows people to see what they are paying $$$$$ (carbon) for. Which seems to be an important marketing tool in the surf industry. It's of zero importance to the windsurf industry because we know our boards have carbon, kelvar etc or they fall apart.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 08:43:06 AM »
Do vacuum constructed boards  (that are sold with No vent plugs) have benefit from installing a vent plug?

Complicated answer. Any manufacturing technique than increases the toughness of the shell, allows greater internal pressure build up before it blows up. So many boards don't have any vent and do fine.

A vent can't hurt, but may not be necessary.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:44:54 AM by DW »

SUP Sports ®

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 08:44:23 AM »
Do vacuum constructed boards  (that are sold with No vent plugs) have benefit from installing a vent plug?

Yes...Boyle's Law applies to all gases trapped inside boards...;-)

Another benefit of a valve is checking for water-tightness of board...I call it the soapy water test...I love seeing bubbles emanate from the valve...other places...not so much...;-)

Another thing to check for is that there is definitely a hole drilled into the fluffy white stuff that is the core of most boards...with the Casica vents, it's important to actually follow the instructions...if your board has a stringer...two angled holes need to be drilled on either side of it...

I've found that Ding Stick putty makes installation a breeze...or, use a thick mixture of epoxy resin if you are gonna go that way...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:47:01 AM by SUPsports »
Mahalos...{:~)

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Santa Barbara, CA 93101

starman

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 08:54:14 AM »
What has not been mentioned is that since all these valves are two way devices you need to pay attention to airborne chemicals. If you are working with solvents on and around the board that vent needs to be closed or taped closed. Chemical vapors can and well attack the EPS foam core. Examples are installing deck pads, cleaning wax, ding repair. And it's not just the board you are working on it's also the boards sitting on the rack next to the one you are using chemicals on.

Fishman

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 09:38:29 AM »
I was searching for a "how to" on the vent plug install and found this one. It looks like a good video to me.   Envision Surfboards Membrane Vent Insert.mov 
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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 09:54:06 AM »
I don't like those plugs...they are not Mil spec...and, they use a different grade of Goretex membrane...it's not all the same...
If you do use them...I would recommend testing their integrity frequently...
The Casica is the industry standard...good enough for military...good enough for surfboards...;-)
Mahalos...{:~)

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(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

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Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

Ucycle

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Re: Goretex vs "manual" vent plugs
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 10:16:51 AM »
+1 on Wardog on the other non goretex brand.  They seem to be just using a goretex fabric similar to the jacket material, very thin.  I took the goretex vent top cap off and it looks nothing like the jacket material i have at home.  Plus most goretex jacket waterproofness goes away in about 2-3yr before you have refresh it with a goretex wash.  Just go with the gore vent and pay couple buck more and be worry free. if you search on swaylock, there is plenty of tutorial on retro fit gore vent installs.
"Surfing is not fashion, it is passion... F*CK YOU surf industry!!!!" -SL

 


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