Author Topic: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed  (Read 8109 times)

AGK

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upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« on: April 12, 2012, 09:28:05 AM »
Hi Zoners -

My apologies if this has been discussed, but I couldn't find it:

I live by a waterbody that is usually windy and choppy, and it is fun to paddle into the wind (at least up to the low 20's) and then catch a few wind-driven runners back (it's about a 15 mile fetch, so we get some good size rollers).  I have been using a 12'6" surftech bark.  I am interested in getting a longer board that would work better for this, as well as for general rough water paddling.

I will also  use the board for some regular downwinders, but the upwind/downwind balance is important for me.

Anybody have insights into the balance between upwind/crosswind characteristics and downwind abilities?  Rocker?  width?  bow shape? Rudder or no rudder?  Specific boards? 

I'm about 180 lbs. and an experienced but not overly talented paddler.

Thanks for any insights.

Andy


balance_fit

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 10:23:11 AM »
Hi Andy
You got a very interesting quest here. As you know, regarding sup, what goes up doesn't necessarily comes down well. You must identify which qualities the Bark you're paddling lacks for your conditions, what you need and what you can give up. For upwind, a piercing bow, low rocker, narrow width, pintail, can help...to a point. For downwind, rockered nose, wider board and tail are the things to look for.
Depending on what your Bark fails to do in your conditions, if you know which shape characteristic causes it, you'll have a starting point to start your search.
Also, the type of wind direction you face or downwind with, will have to be looked at.
Is you paddling area a river, with wind blowing in a definite direction such as a gorge, or is it a wider area where you deal with crosswinds? This will help you decide if you need a rudder or can play with different fins.
Be well
Jd
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covesurfer

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 10:25:13 AM »
I don't know how valuable or worthless my input will be but I paddle in similar conditions to what you're describing. I have two primary boards - a Glide 14 and a Javelin 14 - neither has a rudder.  I don't know the volume of either board but you can find it on the Naish site. Both boards have a square tail but I think the Glide's is wider. They will both catch a bump but the Glide does that easier it seems to me.

The Glide is lower than the Javelin with less boxy rails and has a lot of nose rocker. Its not a great experience paddling upwind - its pretty discouraging actually - but it is an absolute blast in shorter period windswell on the d/w's. The Glide handles rough water and cross-chop paddling pretty well and, after riding the Javelin, feels really stable to me (I'm 155 lbs). When I just want to concentrate on fun and not worry if the wind and swell get more intense I'd choose to be on the Glide. But frankly, it begs for a shuttle upwind.

The Jav has a somewhat convex bottom behind a full displacement style nose, its lighter and narrower than the Glide and has pretty tall boxy rails. For me, its a handful in cross chop and the wind can get a hold of the nose and make course changes difficult. But, it is a joy to paddle in terms of efficiency. Going into the wind, the displacement nose just cuts through the water where the Glide's scoop nose catches all the wind and slaps every wave, slowing the board down. I've only ridden the Jav in fairly mild downwind conditions - about 12 knots with about 1 1/2 foot swells. It is actually not too bad, straight downwind, once you get your speed up. I really don't know how I'm going to do on it as the wind and surface conditions get rougher but its so much easier to paddle upwind that I'll likely keep pushing the envelope with it. As long as I'm pretty straight into or with the wind, its pretty good. Get sideways and I'm thinking about staying upright a lot more than anything else. Then, I'm thinking, this water isn't THAT cold after all.

Don't know whether this helps or not. I love both boards, probably like the Javelin more overall but when I want to just have fun and not worry about getting thrown off the board in rough water or revealing my inner kook, I'd take the Glide. If I want better speed and want to really work the balance out, I'll go with the Jav.

My guess is that there must be boards out there now that aren't as tippy as the Javelin but still have the speed and efficiency that would suite a wider range of conditions. For now, my board quiver is pretty much limited to what it is.

PonoBill

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 11:36:48 AM »
Hi Andy,
Sounds tailor made for a SIC board. They're all about wind. Only problem is getting one anywhere but Hawaii. I know Mark is working on distribution, but I don't know how far he's gotten with it. Maui open ocean boards HAVE to be good in windy conditions. They're in them every day. It's the reason why the waiting list for the new Bullet V2 that aren't being produced in Thailand yet is out past August (mine should be ready in July). Pretty much anyone that wants to be competitive in the channel crossing races who doesn't have a sponsor issue is on an SIC.

The production F16 V2, which is made in Thailand I think, is very good in all kinds of windy conditions. For me, a rudder is a must in any kind of crosswind. You also need a board profile that doesn't get tossed by gusts. I can reverse my F16 in a downwinder and paddle upwind. Boards with a lot of nose thickness (like a displacement nose) have a tough time doing that.

On the non-rudder side, another impossible-to-get board that works well in windy conditions is the Foote Maliko 14.

The new Naish Glides look good, but I haven't tried one yet. Probably will when I get back to Hood River.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:45:20 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »
Gotta agree with PB that the SIC ruddered boards make paddling in the wind easier, than with a board with no rudder.  The rudder allows you to rest one side, especially if there is a strong cross wind.  My Naish Glide 14' 2012 model does pretty good into the wind and very good downwind but it would be even better if it had a rudder.  Dollar for dollar, I think the Glide 14' in AST is a great board and changing out the fin changes the characteristics of the board.

Hey PB, can you share a bit more on the changes to the Bullet V2, heard it's wider with less rocker, it that true? Don't mean to hijak the thread but then again, I'm guessing the Bullet V2 could be a great up and downwind board?

AGK

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 03:20:20 PM »
Gotta agree with PB that the SIC ruddered boards make paddling in the wind easier, than with a board with no rudder.  The rudder allows you to rest one side, especially if there is a strong cross wind.  My Naish Glide 14' 2012 model does pretty good into the wind and very good downwind but it would be even better if it had a rudder.  Dollar for dollar, I think the Glide 14' in AST is a great board and changing out the fin changes the characteristics of the board.

Hey PB, can you share a bit more on the changes to the Bullet V2, heard it's wider with less rocker, it that true? Don't mean to hijak the thread but then again, I'm guessing the Bullet V2 could be a great up and downwind board?

Hijack away!  The SIC boards have always looked attractive - and the Maliko 14 sounds cool -- but all seemunavailable here on the east coast of the US.  I guess one question brought up by the excellent posts above is how possible is it to add a rudder to a board like the new Glide -- are there any good aftermarket systems out there?

In answer to a previous question about what I don't like about the 12'6" Bark -- riding big swells fast, the nose is a handfull (it wants to roll), and side chop seems to catch that nose and throw it around alot (and slow the board down) if it is even a few degrees off dead into the chop - a penalty which is magnified when trying to make headway into significant wind.

I am only about 4 hours from Wilmington, where there are a lot of 14' boards, so I guess I should make the trip and try some of them.

PonoBill

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 03:43:58 PM »
Hey PB, can you share a bit more on the changes to the Bullet V2, heard it's wider with less rocker, it that true? Don't mean to hijak the thread but then again, I'm guessing the Bullet V2 could be a great up and downwind board?

It's a little wider, looks like a little less nose rocker, and the nose has more volume to recover faster from pearling. It's a lot more stable than the original bullet, and folks tell me it's faster and catches swells quicker. Hard to believe something catches swells better than an original Bullet. I paddled one briefly a few days ago. I was having balance problems (before I figured out the standing on one leg thing) so swapping to another board wasn't a great idea. I didn't get much of an impression of it.

Andy, I've seen a few used F16's advertised on the east coast. You might keep an eye out for one. Make sure you get a hollow one. I think big boards with EPS cores have a pretty limited life before they get very heavy from retaining water.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

XLR8

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 04:52:05 PM »
Andy, if you start considering the SIC solution I know Gary at Paddleboard Specialists in Madison, WI, had some SIC boards delivered earlier this year, but I'm not sure which ones.  I wouldn't be surprised if he will be at the Carolina Cup.
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Takeo

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 04:59:00 PM »
PB,
Thanks for the info.   While I was waiting your response, I emailed Karen and got an official list of improvements to the Bullet...who would've thought the Bullet could be improved?  I love my Bullet but in really rough conditions like in my Big Island video, it was a bit challenging until the bumps cooperated.  Anyhow, here's what Mark says about the Bullet V2:

-less effort to get on bumps.
-better ability to connect bumps.
-longer glide.
-same top end speed.
-more stable.
-about 1 1/4" wider (28").
-widest point moved forward.
-same length.
-same weight.
-hollow contruction.
-volume moved forward and out to rails.
-larger EVA dec.
-improved graphic options.


balance_fit

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 06:18:18 PM »
In answer to a previous question about what I don't like about the 12'6" Bark -- riding big swells fast, the nose is a handfull (it wants to roll), and side chop seems to catch that nose and throw it around alot (and slow the board down) if it is even a few degrees off dead into the chop - a penalty which is magnified when trying to make headway into significant wind.

I am only about 4 hours from Wilmington, where there are a lot of 14' boards, so I guess I should make the trip and try some of them.

The issue you face with the bow of the Bark being thrown off course by paddling into chop is something i faced once on a similar design. It's quite energy sapping. This trait can be diminished by choosing a board with a rounder, lower or shallower bow than the Bark's. Or simply with a pointier fin than the stock. 
When going down a swell, if the bow buries in the swell ahead, it may cause your board to steer from the bow, possibly causing what you describe as rolling. This can be solved by timely shifting of weight  aft to lift the bow and/or turning at an angle to the swell. Beware, too much shifting aft will cause the board to stall, requiring extra energy to catch the next swell.
A 14 footer will help you glide better downwind without so much weight shifting and, if it has a rockered or blunt nose, it will avoid steering from the bow as it happens with your Bark. Plus, it's overall waterline will help you upwind as long as it has the correct bow shape.
So, it seems that a 14 footer is in your test list, one with a blunt, rounded or low bow. I would take precaution in choosing a rockered bow, which might be excellent for downwind but a pain back upwind.
Be well
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SEA

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 06:23:03 PM »

 here's what Mark says about the Bullet V2:

-less effort to get on bumps.
-better ability to connect bumps.
-longer glide.
-same top end speed.
-more stable.
-about 1 1/4" wider (28").
-widest point moved forward.
-same length.
-same weight.
-hollow contruction.
-volume moved forward and out to rails.
-larger EVA dec.
-improved graphic options.



HOW MUCH ?? 

stoneaxe

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 07:59:59 PM »
You might go custom too. There are a few folks shaping downwind boards on the east coast. Vec up here on the Cape shaped mine. I was modeled after the Maliko 14. I'd make some slight tweaks to another for east coast conditions and my personal preferences. DW has made some nice looking boards, not sure if he selling but he also shares his shapes so you could get someone local to do it.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 08:05:22 PM by stoneaxe »
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PonoBill

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 08:02:04 PM »
The biggest improvement is not on that list. It no longer does that little funny head shake roll that tosses you in the drink feet first.

I think everyone that owns a Bullet knows what I men by that. You get used to it and it stops tossing you, but while you're learning Bullet owners can recognize each other by the scrapes on their shins.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 08:11:13 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 08:37:15 PM »
Hi Andy.  I have similar conditions at my lake.  Long narrow lake with good runners on 20+ windy days.  I have the SIC X-14 with rudder.  It is a great downwind board.  Super stable, easy to catch runners and the rudder helps so much paddling back into the wind. My previous board was a 12'6 race board and was not much fun paddling into the wind.  The rudder makes all the difference.

JF808

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Re: upwind/downwind "earn your turns" board advice needed
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 08:49:41 PM »
whats the cost on the new bullet v2?

 


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