Author Topic: Board Design Basics  (Read 13584 times)

Blane Chambers

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Board Design Basics
« on: August 14, 2007, 12:34:12 PM »
From another thread this one is born.   First off, I'm not the only shaper out there that has ideas.   All shapers have ideas.    So just a heads up, anything I write about is just an OPINION.   You know what they say about opinions!   There like Ass....   Nevermind, but you get the point. 

In surfboard design, there are absolute truths in waterflow etc but the "feel" of using certain rockers, foils, thickness, outlines, bottoms etc, separates shapers because we all are after a certain "feel", a certain purpose.       I've talked at length with various shapers on all kinds of theories but the guys who have the solid ideas are actually SUP surfing themselves.     If I could never shape again I have certain people I'd go to for boards.   These guys SUP surf a lot so they would understand if I were to tell them what I wanted implemented into a board for stability, glide and surfability.     

Its natural to think a certain way towards SUP board design till you actually do it a lot.   The same combination of theories in regular board design do not work by just making a board bigger.   We all used to think, "I'll just blow up this longboard."  Or, "I'll make it like a Tandem board."   Crude, but it was the beginning.... The beginning of a bunch of x-tra large crappy surfing SUP boards!    We built a few and that's all it took to figure out those theories sucked.    But it was needed to progress.   On the other side of the coin, some shapers think our boards are built to big for performance surfing.   By not SUP surfing their theories lead them to boards that you can't even stand on...   What good is that?    Heck, I'd grab my 6'-2" and use that if I could!

To give more perspective on things, the reason a regular lay down paddle longboard works as well as it does with a certain rocker and foil is because its only 20" to 23" wide and only around 2-1/2" to 3-1/4" thick.     When you start making boards 26+ inches wide and over 3-3/4" thick you need to adjust many things to make it all flow together otherwise you end up with a big slug which is a lot of the SUP boards on the market today.     

Right now, in my OPNION, 90% of the boards out there are still big, terrible surfing slugs based on old ideas.  This is fine for many but why not make all size boards ride well?      Other than design, it takes the same amount of effort to build a good surfing 11 footer and a dead feeling 11 footer.     Same amount of work, materials, etc.    The difference is in the design.     

I'll be back to post more...   I got a bunch of things to do and a possible Hurricane to deal with.   Already the wind is picking up over here...  Darn Flossie!  Haha!

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2007, 03:13:10 PM »
Blane,

Are you going to Surf Expo? I will ask the local SUP dealer to speak with you at the show. I would like to buy local, but get your boards.


Blane Chambers

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2007, 09:47:42 PM »
I'll be at the ASR in San Diego if there is no swell for the Haleiwa SUP contest.    This will be Sept, 7-8 and I'll be walking the show instead of having a booth.     If the swell cranks then I'll stay home and surf.   Chances of Haleiwa being that good on that exact weekend in early Sept is going to be a stretch so most likely I'll be at the show...   PM me if you plan on being there and we can talk story...

Aloha,
Blane

www.paddlesurfhawaii.com


iwaterman

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2007, 10:06:43 PM »
Aloha Blane,

I hope to see you at ASR here in San Diego.  Let me know when you have definite travel plans - I'd like to meet up and say hi for a few minutes.

Aloha,

Mike Pollard

Blane Chambers

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 12:46:44 AM »
So anyway, these are the most important things in a good surfing SUP board...

1. Stability:     In general width and little or no V or roll in the center section of the board will create a neutral, stable board.     Example of the opposite is the Munoz 12 footer.   Plenty roll and plenty tippy.   To top it off it is only 26-1/4" wide.   I loved the board but struggled with the side to side tippyness of it in chop.    In Mickeys defense, he never intended that board for SUP surfing.    What he did intend it for was regular surfing which its does unreal!    Wider, flat bottom boards will be more stable which is the general rule...   Where and how you blend V or concaves in is part of the design knowledge the elite shapers know about.


2. Good paddling speed and glide:    Paddling speed and glide depend on thickness, width and above all the correct rails, rocker and thickness foil.       I won't mention which model but a  certain popular, almost 11 foot board we tried paddles slower than one of our 9'-2" boards...   The bigger board has way more volume but its not blended well with its foil, rocker and rails...   Side by side an 11 footer should NEVER paddle slower than a 9-2...   

3. Surfability:     This is where a lot of boards fall short.   I honestly believe that a lot of shapers are not really trying to make better surfing boards.    Right now the emphasis is to make money selling anything because people are buying anything.    Why spend the effort to build a killer surfing board when the masses are completely happy with a giant log that surfs junk?   From a business stand point I see clearly why...   Easy $$$.     The truth of the matter is this...   Its a difficult thing to build an awesome surfing SUP board.   This is why only a handfull at most can even pull it off.   

There is a big difference between guys like a Ron House, Dave Parmenter Terry Chung, Dennis Pang, Steve Bahne etc etc, and these fly by night shapers that are popping up all over the place with a connection in China that can design a fat ,slow, junk surfing board.   Because these opportunists are only in it for the $$$, they don't realize the true surfers are the customers who are driving the sport into the future..   Or they probably don't care as long as they get your $$$ before you figure it out.       It will all come out in the whitewash and the good will rise to the top as usual....

So what is the ultimate design?     Do like nose riding and a nice flowing glide?   Do you want to carve big turns down the line?    A combination of both?     Here's the secret to a good board... A  blend of the 3 things together.   A stable bottom for your ability with the right rocker for its purpose, and a clean outline with the right thickness and foil.    With these things you cannot go wrong.   Simple!







Jesper B

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 07:43:58 AM »
Blane,
I want to order at least one board from you. As much a small ripper as my ability allows. I’m 6'0, lbs 175, solid wave sailing background (Maui winters since late 80:s) and a less solid but existing surfing background. Balance is good, did not think the Munoz 12' was to tipsy when I tried it as total beginner. Now surfs 10'10 SOS (big blue). I want something smaller, turnier, and snappier more short board style. I live on the east coast of Sweden where waves (usually) are mushy, windy, choppy 1-2 footers, but I also travel to good bigger, juicer surf. But, I'm definitely not a north shore winter swell ripper (and, sad to say, I probably never will be).

What would you recommend?

And when can you have it ready to be shipped over to Sweden?

Best,

/Jesper B

footemaui

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 10:33:02 AM »
Aloha ... Blane makes so much sense.. I am sick of shapers who do SUP boards and don't surf them, and hate to see them in the line-up. Not to mention the shapers that don't even surf. The back 9 seems to be as close to R&D as they can get...Love your work Blane, and ride on... BF

HaleiwaBill

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 05:24:34 PM »
Thanks Blane, any information to further our education is much needed and appreciated. Especially, when it comes people like you who have learned through their own personal experience. There is no replacement for the hard work, trial and error, and R & D shapers like you and the aforementioned shapers have done.

 Sadly, the greedy side of people in this young sport has already reared its ugly head. My attraction to SUP was from such a purists view that it did not even occur to me that those in it for the $$ were already a growing cancer to this sport. However, I agree wholeheartedly that it WILL come out in “the wash”. Please don’t get discouraged Blane. There is no shortcut to EXPERIENCE, QUALITY and CREDIBILITY and you have those 3 in spades my friend.

That is why EDUCATION is so important. The masses don’t buy from the opportunists because of quality, the buy because they don’t know any better, because they are UNEDUCATED. The good news is that we can fight back. As this sport grows the word will get out about who is in it for right reasons and who is not. Who actually SUP surfs and who does not, and who makes a quality product and who does not.

Forums like the standuozone play an important role in this education and I cant thank the founders enough for providing a place to learn and grow as a community. Nothing happens overnight, but the men who are building solid reputations by SUP surfing (and ripping!) their own designs and making boards for the best watermen (Ikaika, Doerner, and the master himself Gerry Lopez) will be the ones “standing” (PUN intended) in the end.

As SUP surfers, and yes consumers, it is up to US to educate ourselves and support those who are taking our sport in the right direction. Whether we are newbie’s or rippers we have an amazing opportunity. We have responsability in choosing which shapers we work with and support and how we act in the line up. IMHO this goes much deeper than just buying a suitable board and going on our way without regard to how our actions will affect the future of SUP surfing.

Just think how much better other surfing hybrid sports would have been if they had known what could and would happen?...........well?............We have that opportunity right here and now. Based on the quality of the members I have met in my short time, I have faith we are heading the right direction!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 05:33:19 PM by HaleiwaBill »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 06:00:41 PM »
hum, curious now.

Does Jimmy Lewis paddle or play the back 9?

You have me trying to guess who the non experts are now. Windsurf shapers come to mind.

More clues please.

I don't want to be anyones test dummy.

HaleiwaBill

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 06:35:54 PM »
DW-I hope you did not think my comments were directed totwards JL? because that was certainly not what I was talking about. I was refering to the  fly by night shapers that are popping up all over the place with a connection in China that can design a fat ,slow, junk surfing board.   Because these opportunists are only in it for the $$$

I have seen that type of situation cause a lot of problems to the good people who originated the products. They do all the hard work and research and then others (opportunists) swoop in just to make a buck. As a small business owner it has happened to me and my family. I also this saw this happen many times in my past years in the surf industry. I was speaking out on that subject.

footemaui

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2007, 07:00:41 PM »
No JL does not golf.... JL noserides like nobodys buisiness......

Rand

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 05:10:35 AM »
Hi guys,

In many new industries, concepts and designs seem to go in a variety of directions at first, becoming more homogenized as things move along.  Stand up is no exception.

We have some companies producing almost entirely for the beginner market, many others making crossover sailboard/stand up boards, another group focusing on multi-use (for stand up touring, stand up wave and some even trying to attract laydown surf and laydown tandem), finally, there are those producing boards marketed towards the touring and wave markets. 

In reality, a lot of these boards, regardless of supposed categories are just large early stage boards.  But, right now, most stand up paddlers are brand new at it, so there is some sense in this.  Even the old hats amongst us have been at it for what, 2-3 years?  When in that progression did we see the first 10 foot customs show up?  How about the first solid looking race board?  In any meaningful quantity, we are talking about 1 year +/-.

My interest would be in getting riders on to usable gear right away without wasting money and while avoiding negative experiences that will hinder their stoke.  Specifically, I think that buying 3 boards to progress in to the range that might work for a given rider, is a lot.  My recent experience with my folks on the Mistral Pacifico, was exactly as it should be.  We rented these boards, which were perfectly suited for the job, and the experience was immediate stoke for them.  Do they need to buy a board of this size?  No.  These are great rental boards.  In my mind, a big chunk of the current market is made up of boards that many will move past after 2 weeks of paddling.

Additionally, I think it would be great to see the performance under 10' foot production wave (currently 1 model) and production race boards (currently 0 models?) expand.  Just my opinion, but when the average time participating in the sport has changed from a few months, to 2-3 years, I see the market being much different, with the two categories at the top of this paragraph having multiple, well tested, production options.

Randy

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2007, 09:06:06 AM »
This should make for a realy informative topic. I learned a lot from a section just like this in a Surf Forum I visit. Now I know what the different shapes, contours, and materials, do specificaly. Rather than just guessing, I can pick a board based on knowledge of design. Still haven't mastered it, as I don't realy have a "magic" board yet. But one day I'll find it.

 My SUP I ride is definately too big, but I'll use for a while, and try to figure out what i want next.

noworrieshawaii

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2007, 01:11:08 PM »
K... this is for Chan... your 9'1" is EPS/epoxy right? Does it have a sandwich? Its super light yeah like my PSH?

Was checking out friends beautiful new 10'9" Timpone board and couldnt hardly pick the thing up.

Still trying to get all the manufacturing processes clear in my brain... : )

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Board Design Basics
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2007, 02:40:58 PM »
K... this is for Chan... your 9'1" is EPS/epoxy right? Does it have a sandwich? Its super light yeah like my PSH?

Was checking out friends beautiful new 10'9" Timpone board and couldnt hardly pick the thing up.

Still trying to get all the manufacturing processes clear in my brain... : )

If you don't mind, I'd like to jump in here. I too was shocked at the weight of a custom EPS/epoxy SUP I recently held in my hands. This board was 10'6 and shaped in CA. Yet I read claims of light EPS/epoxy (non sandwich) customs from some famous shapers. How can this be?

Sandwich is always going to be a pop-out, unless you have deep pockets for a custom vacuum bag job in the US.

My understanding is custom EPS/epoxy "without sandwich" is not as tough, so the glass job must be heavier. So is anyone really doing light boards customs? Maybe everyones idea of light is measured different. Are these light customs, if they exist, prone to dings like a light traditional surfboard? I would not be willing to tolerate a fragile SUP due to the handling issues and increased risk of abuse created by the massive size.

 


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